Christians

  • CallusedSilk

    CallusedSilk (100)

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    Lasairiona Berry:
    For me, that does speak of a deeper issue: you're not willing to put someone else before yourself for a momentary discomfort. What you want is more important. Like it's too much work to change an outfit for a few hours in order to maintain a relationship. Be honest and tell them you don't agree that's cool.
    This. Stuff like this drives me crazy. This is now the second time you've decided to make judgment calls about my entire being and soul instead of just sticking to what we're talking about. Stop it. Stop devolving into personal attacks.
    Lasairiona Berry:
    If you want to make a wild extrapolation from that idea, that's like a murder arguing that they have a right to kill who they want without going to jail. We as a society have established that murder is wrong. A citizen who doesn't agree and doesn't want to conform to that standard murders. He argues that he shouldn't be jailed because it's society's opinion but not his. He has a right to do what he wants.

    That's kind of how your argument sounds. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but it shouldn't affect me because I have the right to do, say, and wear what I want. Am I misunderstanding your argument there?
    Did you just seriously compare wearing a lowcut top to someone murdering another human being? I'm going to break my own rule and tell you never to do that again, because it is inherently a logical fallacy and also, it's just trying to stir things up. There is no societal standard that wearing a bikini is wrong. So even if we're going from a societal standard sort of analogy, your analogy still doesn't work. Also, as a matter of fact, this is a free country. If what you're doing is legal and allowed in that area? You don't really have a say in it legally. That is a fact of law. Also, you once again keep bringing this personal.
    Lasairiona Berry:
    And you've mentioned "the real world" a couple times. We're talking about a church setting. The whole point of the church is to be set apart. We're supposed to be different from the rest of the world and presenting a lifestyle in which we don't have to conform to worldly standards in order to be happy. No matter what extreme a church takes that set apart mentality, if you make the intentional choice to be part of that church, you are agreeing to their standards and saying you will live by them. How you choose to act outside of church is up to you. But when with the church or church memebers, you've accepted a set of cultural norms and are expected to respect them or remove yourself from the group. I repeat, by all means express your disgreement with the norm, but intentionally and flagrantly disregarding their expressed standards and expetations is disrespectful.

    If you don't feel that it is, then that's your opinion. Which you are free to have. But if a church bars you from an activity because you don't agree, give them the same curtesy of expressing their opinion how they see fit.
    Life is more than just church and the church's judgments carry far more weight and reach than just church functions. So no, the conversation was never just about being in church. You know who else didn't follow all the rules simply because they were rules? Jesus. The entire religion is based on a dude that defied the norm. The bible is filled with stories that can be interpreted in many ways. It's why there are so many subsets of a religion. The bible is however, notoriously sexist. The fact that girls are the only ones told to keep track of what they're wearing and boys aren't told anything at all is inherently sexist and wrong.
    September 18th, 2014 at 05:12am
  • Lasairiona Berry

    Lasairiona Berry (150)

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    First, the use of "you" in my posts isn't pointing at you personally. If I meant you as a person specifically, I would say so. It's the universal you. Just like saying he, she, or they. It's generic. But if you want to read into it a personal attack, you (as in you the woman I'm talking to specifically) are entitled to do so.

    Secondly, that argument isn't a logical fallacy. Yes, it is an extreme representation of the principle I am trying to discuss. For the basis of the principal, it makes sense. What one person feels entitled to does not negate their societal obligations. Discontent can be expressed but there is still an expectation that the obligation will be upheld until such a time that the societal standard is changed. Raging against it and failing to present a coherent argument does nothing but show that one is ruled by emotions. If you (universal) want a logical discussion of a topic, then you (again, universal) have to be willing to channel your passions and emotions in such a way that you (again...) can convince the other person that you (do I need to say this every time?) One, heard their side; two, understood it; and three, can respond without basically throwing a fit because you think they aren't hearing you.

    Furthermore, what are laws? Laws are standards, social norms, and morals that the majority has agreed are for the bettering of our coexistence. If one person doesn't agree with a law, they are still held accountable for living by that law. In the context of the original post, if the church as a majority decides that something is revealing, doesn't it follow that people who attend the church are expexcted to dress accordingly?

    Life is more than church. But for a Christian, our behavior an example is supposed to be consistent. Is it always? No. I know I'm not. I clean up my language, and as we've found, dress a little different at church. But if this concept is applied elsewhere.... if you (uni) take a job and they give you a dress code which you refuse to follow because it interferes with your right to express yourself throuh your clothes, that employer has the right to fire you for noncompliance to company policy.

    As for the sexism in the Bible thing...it was pretty progressive for the in which it was written. At a time when men could divorce their wives for burning breakfast or not being dolled up when they first woke up, the Bible gave clear guidelines saying that a man was sinning against God if he left his wife for anythiglng less than sexual immorality. Yes, there are cultural biases in the Bible. But that's where you look at the principle the words are illustrating. Women weren't supposed to go out with their hair uncovered and wearing a bunch of jewelry because that's how the culture around them presented the image of beauty. The writers were speaking to the fact that Christ is what makes a woman beautiful. Not the make up and clothes. Personally, I like to look at it not as a restriction but a freeing of women from the pressure of society to make myself look like a model every time I leave my house. Cause at the base of it, the Bible (and consequently God) is telling me that my clothes aren't what makes me pretty. I'm beautiful because I'm more focused on growing my relationship with Him. Which involves not being attached to things I can't take with me when I die.

    But hey, if you don't agree with any of that, that's your prerogative. As I said before our basis for coming to the same conclusion differs, but we both agree that there are clothing standards for church...which is what the original post was about.
    September 18th, 2014 at 06:09am
  • CallusedSilk

    CallusedSilk (100)

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    Lasairiona Berry:
    First, the use of "you" in my posts isn't pointing at you personally. If I meant you as a person specifically, I would say so. It's the universal you. Just like saying he, she, or they. It's generic. But if you want to read into it a personal attack, you (as in you the woman I'm talking to specifically) are entitled to do so.
    At one point in our conversation did you talking to everyone universally stop including me, even if that is your argument? There is still no reason to make fundamental judgment calls about anyone during this discussion. You're still deciding that some stranger out there is some selfish person because they don't agree with you, and it's bashing.
    Lasairiona Berry:
    Secondly, that argument isn't a logical fallacy. Yes, it is an extreme representation of the principle I am trying to discuss. For the basis of the principal, it makes sense. What one person feels entitled to does not negate their societal obligations. Discontent can be expressed but there is still an expectation that the obligation will be upheld until such a time that the societal standard is changed. Raging against it and failing to present a coherent argument does nothing but show that one is ruled by emotions. If you (universal) want a logical discussion of a topic, then you (again, universal) have to be willing to channel your passions and emotions in such a way that you (again...) can convince the other person that you (do I need to say this every time?) One, heard their side; two, understood it; and three, can respond without basically throwing a fit because you think they aren't hearing you.
    Nope, it's still a logical fallacy, because murderers and people that dress in less clothing than a singular group of people may potentially dislike are in no way similar. There is a fundamental problem with taking another human beings life. It's also illegal. Wearing a bikini? Comparing murder and bikinis not only makes your argument look weak, but it also is further abusive toward people that disagree with you and harmful toward those who have actually lost someone to murder.
    Lasairiona Berry:
    Furthermore, what are laws? Laws are standards, social norms, and morals that the majority has agreed are for the bettering of our coexistence. If one person doesn't agree with a law, they are still held accountable for living by that law. In the context of the original post, if the church as a majority decides that something is revealing, doesn't it follow that people who attend the church are expexcted to dress accordingly?

    Life is more than church. But for a Christian, our behavior an example is supposed to be consistent. Is it always? No. I know I'm not. I clean up my language, and as we've found, dress a little different at church. But if this concept is applied elsewhere.... if you (uni) take a job and they give you a dress code which you refuse to follow because it interferes with your right to express yourself throuh your clothes, that employer has the right to fire you for noncompliance to company policy.
    I'm not sure why you insist on going back to our original post when our conversation has clearly gone beyond that. Especially since you're the one to insist on throwing murder into the mix. Also, church's word isn't law. It's actually a public place, not a private place and is thus subject to the laws of the land. Therefore, the laws of the United States government do actually supersede the laws of any given church. Hence why churches can do ceremonies for a lot of things, but that doesn't make some of them legal. If there's nothing wrong with the employee's clothing and the employer still insists on the employee changing, then that individual can sue the employer for discrimination. And can win.
    Lasairiona Berry:
    As for the sexism in the Bible thing...it was pretty progressive for the in which it was written. At a time when men could divorce their wives for burning breakfast or not being dolled up when they first woke up, the Bible gave clear guidelines saying that a man was sinning against God if he left his wife for anythiglng less than sexual immorality. Yes, there are cultural biases in the Bible. But that's where you look at the principle the words are illustrating. Women weren't supposed to go out with their hair uncovered and wearing a bunch of jewelry because that's how the culture around them presented the image of beauty. The writers were speaking to the fact that Christ is what makes a woman beautiful. Not the make up and clothes. Personally, I like to look at it not as a restriction but a freeing of women from the pressure of society to make myself look like a model every time I leave my house. Cause at the base of it, the Bible (and consequently God) is telling me that my clothes aren't what makes me pretty. I'm beautiful because I'm more focused on growing my relationship with Him. Which involves not being attached to things I can't take with me when I die.
    I really should not have brought up sexism at all in the bible since it's an entirely different conversation and I do apologize. I will point out that it was not progressive for it's time though since 'sexual immorality' also covered if he thought at all that the woman wasn't a virgin when he married her, which at the time would have probably been tested by if she had a hymen or if she bled during first sexual contact with her husband, which is notoriously unreliable since the hymen can be broken in non-sexual activities. 'Sexual immorality' also included if she'd been raped, since the bible says that the woman should marry her rapist. Unless she was married when she was raped, and then her rapist just owed her husband money for damaging his property. Also frequently she could just be killed for certain things, so...there's that.

    And you know what? I applaud you in making that decision for yourself and truly believing that. I really do. Decisions and beliefs like that should be the individual's decision that they truly believe in. However, it still doesn't change the fact that if someone doesn't fully 100% agree with that statement that they are no less of a Christian, no less of a woman, no more selfish or no closer to being compared to a murderer than you are. They deserve the same amount of respect that you do.
    September 18th, 2014 at 05:46pm
  • Lasairiona Berry

    Lasairiona Berry (150)

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    Okay. It's pretty clear that we're not going to come to any form of....agreement because I feel like we're discussing different things. I'll oblige and continue this, but in private messages. Because I do have a lot I want/can say about each of the points you've raised, but I feel like I'm repeating myself.

    My intent has never been to insult, but I can't control how you may or may not perceive my words.
    September 18th, 2014 at 09:31pm
  • Zorua

    Zorua (100)

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    Okay, a summary of what I was saying: It is sexist for youth leaders to tell women what to wear and not men. It is wrong for them to body police women. It is wrong for them to perpetuate the idea that women's bodies will cause men to fall away from God. It is in no way the woman's fault if the man has sinful thoughts about her, AND it is IN NO WAY the woman's responsibility to make sure the man doesn't sin. That is wrong wrong wrong.

    end
    October 5th, 2014 at 11:23pm
  • awake and alive;

    awake and alive; (100)

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    -delete
    October 23rd, 2014 at 11:48am
  • Teddi Manni

    Teddi Manni (100)

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    @ welcome to nightvale
    Keep loving God<3 that's what is most important :) You're awesome!
    December 14th, 2014 at 06:05pm
  • ThePiesEndure

    ThePiesEndure (115)

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    @ welcome to nightvale
    I think the most important thing for you is to be able to feel comfortable being you, first. Then trust in God and find a good church that is accepting of you as a person and won't try to change you. God knows you and loves you. What other people think or say can hurt, but ultimately you need to accept yourself.
    December 15th, 2014 at 02:48am
  • This.Useless.Heart.

    This.Useless.Heart. (115)

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    It's a shame to see that this thread is dead. Maybe I ought to...resurrect it, eh?? Naughty XD

    I have recently been saved and started going to church regularly and studying scriptures. In doing so, I brought my husband back to God and back into doing those sorts of things. It's been mostly good, but I must confess there are things about it that have troubled me. I have a lot of anxiety issues and oddly enough my faith helps a lot (that part isn't really odd) but I have also been having anxiety that is at least related to or influenced by church/scripture/religion. I was sort of hoping to have a place to discuss that (among other things), but, I suppose unless someone responds in here, I will have to try to find that elsewhere.
    May 15th, 2017 at 11:17pm
  • ThePiesEndure

    ThePiesEndure (115)

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    @ This.Useless.Heart.
    Hey :) I'm glad someone revived the thread. I used to post in this thread years ago, but Mibba has kinda died...and life got busy. But, I'd be glad to have discussions with you about any or all of those things. Our journeys as Christians may be different but, it's good to talk it out with people who are on similar journeys.

    I've been a "Christian" most of my life, having grown up in the church, but my journey hasn't been the same the whole time. I was christened in the Presbyterian tradition, but I never became a communicant member of the Presbyterian Church as at 16 my attendance dwindled. Even though, at the same time my faith became stronger. More real, if you will. Then at 21 I started going to a large non-denominational charismatic church (If you've heard of Hillsong, think that but a little smaller).

    My views on science also colour the way I walk my journey with Christ (I accept the theory of evolution etc), and my husband's chronic illness as well has made my walk even stronger.

    So, that's me :D
    May 17th, 2017 at 03:11am
  • This.Useless.Heart.

    This.Useless.Heart. (115)

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    @ The Pies Endure
    Interesting. So do you still go to church regularly? And do you study scriptures?

    Also, I agree with you about science and faith. I will never understand why some people on either side of the debate act like the two are mutually exclusive. I can easily conceive of our God making animals with the ability to evolve and adapt to their surroundings. Also, my theory about the "big bang" is that it's actually more easily understood through faith; after all, what was the catalyst for the "big bang"? To me, it obviously had to be God.

    I've always struggled with anxiety, and in a lot of ways faith has helped me. After all, why should I worry so much all the time when God's got my back? But at the same time, my anxiety issues haven't and will never just magically go away; I accept that. But there are things I worry about either when I get anxious or that cause me to get very anxious.

    For instance, I worry a lot about sin. I have a weird complex where I'm insanely easily guilted. Like you could probably make me feel guilty for something I straight up never did if you tried at all. I don't fully understand why I'm like that, but I always have been. So, as you might imagine when people talk about sin and how everyone sins all the time and how we must avoid sin to remain close to God, sometimes I get a little panicky. I'm kinda working through that one though. I know that God is loving and forgiving, and I genuinely believe that as long as I'm trying my best to be the best I can be and that as long as I continue to follow Him and believe in Him that He will never forsake me.

    Also, I feel conflicted when people say "oh the world/humanity/people are all so terrible because sin is in the world" because, well, I love the world for the most part and I love people for the most part. For my own mental health and for the sake of just basically being able to be kind to everyone around me, I try to focus on seeing the best in people and being positive as much as I can. But the way some people talk, this aspect of my worldview is at odds with scripture/what I should believe.

    Then, of course, there's an issue I'd be very curious about your input on that weighs heavily on me somewhat often. I have always believed it was okay to be LGBT+, I've always been an ally, and I am, myself, bisexual (although I am married to a man, and have pretty much decided for the sake of avoiding the sin of "lust" I need to ignore my same sex attractions as much as possible.) I was always certain that if we someday had a child that was LGBT+ they would have great and supportive and accepting parents. Well, now I'm not so sure. My husband still believes in treating these people with tolerance and kindness, but he has gone back to his beliefs that homosexuality is a sin. I'm just... not sure what to believe tbh. I don't want to believe that it is sinful. I don't want to believe that two adults in a loving, healthy relationship with each other who aren't hurting anyone are committing a sin just because they both happen to be the same gender. It's hard for me to conceive of a loving God who would condemn such people. I know that there are Christian LGBT+ people and Christian LGBT+ resources, and I've looked into some, and in some ways they are helpful, but at the same time the scriptures warn against false teachings, so I can't help but be afraid I'm inadvertently being taken in by such false teachings. Yet, in my heart, they don't feel false; in my heart, I feel like it's okay. I just don't know whether to fully trust the feeling; I don't know whether it is my own wishful thinking or whether it really comes from God. Of course, I know that regardless of any conclusion I reach, it is always gonna be between that LGBT+ person and God, and really, I probably shouldn't borrow trouble worrying too much about it. Still, as someone with LGBT+ friends, someone who may someday have LGBT+ kids or may someday have relatives that turn out to be LGBT+, it weighs on me at times.

    Sorry for writing a book and unloading so much on you. I have just been really wanting to find online communities I can discuss these sorts of topics in, especially on places like Mibba, which I already use.
    Thank you for your response, and have a blessed day. Arms
    May 18th, 2017 at 07:20pm
  • ThePiesEndure

    ThePiesEndure (115)

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    This.Useless.Heart.:
    @ The Pies Endure
    Interesting. So do you still go to church regularly? And do you study scriptures?
    Yes, since going to that church in 2006, I went there every weekend for ten years, I served in the worship team, singing in the choir so I was very involved as well. This year as my husband and I moved a little further north of the city where we live we now go to a smaller Baptist Church, and are slowly resettling there. However, we will put our hands up to join the music team at some point because it is a big part of how we connect with God.

    As to studying scripture, I did do some night classes several years ago, but these days I use an app called SheReadsTruth (you could look it up :)) and try and keep up with personal devotions as time is a constraint for me. Though I may go down the route of more study at Bible College or something, one day.
    This.Useless.Heart.:
    Also, I agree with you about science and faith. I will never understand why some people on either side of the debate act like the two are mutually exclusive. I can easily conceive of our God making animals with the ability to evolve and adapt to their surroundings. Also, my theory about the "big bang" is that it's actually more easily understood through faith; after all, what was the catalyst for the "big bang"? To me, it obviously had to be God.
    My mum and I share that exact same view! :D
    This.Useless.Heart.:
    I've always struggled with anxiety, and in a lot of ways faith has helped me. After all, why should I worry so much all the time when God's got my back? But at the same time, my anxiety issues haven't and will never just magically go away; I accept that. But there are things I worry about either when I get anxious or that cause me to get very anxious.

    For instance, I worry a lot about sin. I have a weird complex where I'm insanely easily guilted. Like you could probably make me feel guilty for something I straight up never did if you tried at all. I don't fully understand why I'm like that, but I always have been. So, as you might imagine when people talk about sin and how everyone sins all the time and how we must avoid sin to remain close to God, sometimes I get a little panicky. I'm kinda working through that one though. I know that God is loving and forgiving, and I genuinely believe that as long as I'm trying my best to be the best I can be and that as long as I continue to follow Him and believe in Him that He will never forsake me.
    People who say we must avoid sin to remain close to God have got it a little wrong. We need to bring those things to God, and ask Him to help us avoid them. It's our sin and our awareness of it that should draw us closer.
    After all, Jesus came for the sinners. (The Pharisees were questioning why Jesus was eating with sinners) Mark 2:17: When Jesus heard this, he told them "Healthy people don't need a doctor--sick people do. I have come to call not those who think they are righteous, but those who know they are sinners."
    This.Useless.Heart.:
    Also, I feel conflicted when people say "oh the world/humanity/people are all so terrible because sin is in the world" because, well, I love the world for the most part and I love people for the most part. For my own mental health and for the sake of just basically being able to be kind to everyone around me, I try to focus on seeing the best in people and being positive as much as I can. But the way some people talk, this aspect of my worldview is at odds with scripture/what I should believe.
    It is true that we are all inherently sinful. But that doesn't mean that people can't be genuinely trying to do the best they can. I too like to see the best in people, and try to have a heart of forgiveness toward people who do me wrong, even if they don't deserve it. And I think in some ways we are meant to feel conflicted. Because evil is real. We can see that with all the awful things happening in the world today. And that is because of sin. God created the world to be good in the beginning. No sin. No pain. No suffering. But, it also comes down to an understanding of sin. Sin is basically people wanting to be their own god. Wanting to be in control of their own life. That's how everyone is sinful. Even us Christians, because it is so easy to want to push God away and say "I got this. I can do this on my own." And then you look out and see the crap in the world and realise, no...only God has the real answer to all this. Jesus Christ.
    This.Useless.Heart.:
    Then, of course, there's an issue I'd be very curious about your input on that weighs heavily on me somewhat often. I have always believed it was okay to be LGBT+, I've always been an ally, and I am, myself, bisexual (although I am married to a man, and have pretty much decided for the sake of avoiding the sin of "lust" I need to ignore my same sex attractions as much as possible.) I was always certain that if we someday had a child that was LGBT+ they would have great and supportive and accepting parents. Well, now I'm not so sure. My husband still believes in treating these people with tolerance and kindness, but he has gone back to his beliefs that homosexuality is a sin. I'm just... not sure what to believe tbh. I don't want to believe that it is sinful. I don't want to believe that two adults in a loving, healthy relationship with each other who aren't hurting anyone are committing a sin just because they both happen to be the same gender. It's hard for me to conceive of a loving God who would condemn such people. I know that there are Christian LGBT+ people and Christian LGBT+ resources, and I've looked into some, and in some ways they are helpful, but at the same time the scriptures warn against false teachings, so I can't help but be afraid I'm inadvertently being taken in by such false teachings. Yet, in my heart, they don't feel false; in my heart, I feel like it's okay. I just don't know whether to fully trust the feeling; I don't know whether it is my own wishful thinking or whether it really comes from God. Of course, I know that regardless of any conclusion I reach, it is always gonna be between that LGBT+ person and God, and really, I probably shouldn't borrow trouble worrying too much about it. Still, as someone with LGBT+ friends, someone who may someday have LGBT+ kids or may someday have relatives that turn out to be LGBT+, it weighs on me at times.
    My husband and I were talking about this just the other day. I too am conflicted in where I stand, and to touch on one of my thoughts I'll draw on the current marriage equality debate going on in Australia at the moment. I know this is only one part of the debate. But, it helps me focus my thoughts. I think we as Christians can disagree with homosexuality, and still see it as inherently sinful and still support the rights of the LGBT+ community. For several reasons.

    1. Homosexuality is not any more sinful than any other sin listed in the Bible (except for the unforgivable sin)
    2. State and Church should be separate - ie. We should not dictate what the law is concerning marriage in the eyes of the state. Yes, we can believe that homosexuals shouldn't marry under God/shouldn't be married in a church. But, by law? Atheists get married too. Should we get upset about that? Haha, joking aside...
    3. We are meant to be reflecting the love of Christ to everyone. There's no secret clauses or exceptions.

    I asked my husband a question: If/when marriage equality becomes a reality in Australia, if my friend who is in a homosexual relationship decides to have a wedding and invited us, would you go? (My husband is the same view of your husband) And he said he would, because it would be to show that you support and love the person. It is not his place to judge them, that's between them and God.

    I admit I wasn't as sure as him, but I saw his point. In the end God knows what's in each of our hearts.
    This.Useless.Heart.:
    Sorry for writing a book and unloading so much on you. I have just been really wanting to find online communities I can discuss these sorts of topics in, especially on places like Mibba, which I already use.
    Thank you for your response, and have a blessed day. Arms
    Don't apologise :) It is hard to find a safe place to have discussions like this. Hope some of what I said helps :)
    God Bless
    May 19th, 2017 at 03:39am
  • This.Useless.Heart.

    This.Useless.Heart. (115)

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    The Pies Endure:
    As to studying scripture, I did do some night classes several years ago, but these days I use an app called SheReadsTruth (you could look it up :)) and try and keep up with personal devotions as time is a constraint for me. Though I may go down the route of more study at Bible College or something, one day.
    That sounds cool. I might have to look into that!
    The Pies Endure:
    People who say we must avoid sin to remain close to God have got it a little wrong. We need to bring those things to God, and ask Him to help us avoid them. It's our sin and our awareness of it that should draw us closer.
    After all, Jesus came for the sinners. (The Pharisees were questioning why Jesus was eating with sinners) Mark 2:17: When Jesus heard this, he told them "Healthy people don't need a doctor--sick people do. I have come to call not those who think they are righteous, but those who know they are sinners."
    That is a really good point. I will definitely have to remember that one! Well said and well quoted!
    The Pies Endure:
    It is true that we are all inherently sinful. But that doesn't mean that people can't be genuinely trying to do the best they can. I too like to see the best in people, and try to have a heart of forgiveness toward people who do me wrong, even if they don't deserve it. And I think in some ways we are meant to feel conflicted. Because evil is real. We can see that with all the awful things happening in the world today. And that is because of sin. God created the world to be good in the beginning. No sin. No pain. No suffering. But, it also comes down to an understanding of sin. Sin is basically people wanting to be their own god. Wanting to be in control of their own life. That's how everyone is sinful. Even us Christians, because it is so easy to want to push God away and say "I got this. I can do this on my own." And then you look out and see the crap in the world and realise, no...only God has the real answer to all this. Jesus Christ.
    That's a good point, I suppose. And despite trying to focus on the positives, I would certainly never deny there is darkness and evil in the world. And it is definitely good to be forgiving, even when it is sometimes hard!
    The Pies Endure:
    My husband and I were talking about this just the other day. I too am conflicted in where I stand, and to touch on one of my thoughts I'll draw on the current marriage equality debate going on in Australia at the moment. I know this is only one part of the debate. But, it helps me focus my thoughts. I think we as Christians can disagree with homosexuality, and still see it as inherently sinful and still support the rights of the LGBT+ community. For several reasons.

    1. Homosexuality is not any more sinful than any other sin listed in the Bible (except for the unforgivable sin)
    2. State and Church should be separate - ie. We should not dictate what the law is concerning marriage in the eyes of the state. Yes, we can believe that homosexuals shouldn't marry under God/shouldn't be married in a church. But, by law? Atheists get married too. Should we get upset about that? Haha, joking aside...
    3. We are meant to be reflecting the love of Christ to everyone. There's no secret clauses or exceptions.

    I asked my husband a question: If/when marriage equality becomes a reality in Australia, if my friend who is in a homosexual relationship decides to have a wedding and invited us, would you go? (My husband is the same view of your husband) And he said he would, because it would be to show that you support and love the person. It is not his place to judge them, that's between them and God.

    I admit I wasn't as sure as him, but I saw his point. In the end God knows what's in each of our hearts.
    I certainly didn't mean to imply that LGBT+ people didn't deserve equal rights, one way or the other. Neither of our countries are theocracies and that's a very good thing; regardless of whether it's a sin to be gay or not, legally lgbt+ people are owed the same rights as anyone else. I also acknowledge that marriage isn't a strictly religious thing. I know some happily married atheists, haha.
    I would assume you and I are of a similar mind when it comes to this issue. I am sort of resigned to the fact that I may never really reach a solid conclusion on the issue, and that's okay. If God means for me to, then I will; if He doesn't, then I won't. At the same time though, for whatever reason, I feel compelled to discuss it with others and study on it every so often.

    Thanks for your response!
    May 19th, 2017 at 05:57am
  • ThePiesEndure

    ThePiesEndure (115)

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    @ This.Useless.Heart.
    You're very welcome. :) I need that discussion as well sometimes. And I find it easier online than with people face to face. Except my husband and my best friend of course. :) I met my best friend at a young adults bible study group seven years ago. And my husband met through mutual church friends. And we have some interesting conversations, especially as we don't agree on all the minor things.
    May 20th, 2017 at 05:12am
  • This.Useless.Heart.

    This.Useless.Heart. (115)

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    @ The Pies Endure
    That's cool. I like discussing these things with my husband, but I also seek and value input from others, and I agree that a lot of times for me stuff can be easier to talk about via text rather than face-to-face.
    I recently found this website called Hope Remains and have been reading on it. I really like it. I'm still open to other ideas and interpretations as well as theirs, of course, but I find a lot of what they say to make sense and it seems to come from a knowledgeable source. It focuses on scripture used against LGBT+ people and how said scripture might be misinterpreted or mistranslated; it seems like a great resource for LGBT+ Christians or anyone else who wants to explore that topic from all sides (or people like me, who fall into both camps.)
    May 20th, 2017 at 05:47pm
  • fiji_guurl

    fiji_guurl (100)

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    why hasn't anyone said anything here for 9 years... can this please keep going.. i need believers
    December 15th, 2017 at 03:16am
  • ThePiesEndure

    ThePiesEndure (115)

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    @ fiji_guurl
    I posted in here seven months ago. You have to click onto page 107 of the thread.
    December 31st, 2017 at 12:34pm
  • VixL

    VixL (100)

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    I am defintely a Christian because I believe in Jesus Christ. Do I always follow His teachings and live by His word every single day...well, that’s debabtable. I’m not out here purposely trying to go against how He lived His life and what He wanted from His followers. But I defintely could be doing more and spending more time with Him. I’ve been trying to find my faith...or rather my version of faith it seems since I’m no longer tied to believing what my mom believes. And that can sometimes get tricky in a family+extended family who all have varying beliefs and interpretations of God and Christ. At one point, I was choosing only to read the New Testament because I felt like the Old Testament was more for those who are Jewish. However, I don’t know. All I know is that I believe in Christ and His teachings. But I seriously could be a better Christian/follower of Him.
    February 18th, 2018 at 07:09pm
  • ThePiesEndure

    ThePiesEndure (115)

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    @ VixL
    Hi! Don’t feel like you have to believe what your family believes. It is more important to look to Scripture and what it says about Jesus then what traditions might say.

    As to the Bible, I would suggest reading both the Old and the New Testaments. Jesus Himself said that He did not come to abolish the Law (that is the Old Testament laws) but to fulfil them (Matthew 5:17-20 NIV).

    If you read the Bible as a whole you will understand that the Old Testament points TO Jesus. The Gospels tell us about Jesus’ ministry and then the epistles tell us of how our lives should be lived in light of Jesus’ death and resurrection. The whole Bible is God’s Word. Not just the New Testament. Granted the OT is more difficult to read, but it is just as important, especially in understanding why Jesus’ had to come.

    Anyway, welcome to the Christian forum on Mibba! Glad to see someone sharing their thoughts on here. We’re all on a journey of faith and no one has got it haha.
    February 18th, 2018 at 11:12pm
  • VixL

    VixL (100)

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    @ ThePiesEndure
    Thanks so much for breaking that down for me! That actually helps me a lot regarding the Bible, so I really appreciate that!! <3 <3 And thank you, too for the warm welcome! In Love
    February 18th, 2018 at 11:27pm