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i always find religious debates so funny. There is no way to prove or disprove the existance of a god, but you can disprove every religion on earth. And yes FnHeroes is being closed minded, but thats because he has the evidence to back it up.

yeah, well, some people might PREFER a simple explanation, but just because we can make one up doesnt mean it's real. I mean, i COULD sun the sun is orange because its jealous of the fruit orange, it'd be much simpler than a combination of extreme heat, hydrogen, and helium gas. But its just stupid. Obviously the sun isnt jealous of citrus fruit, and dice rolls are just that - luck. There is no higher power that goes "oh, lets let this guy roll a 8 in monopoly for free parking" because that - along with the suns jealously, is just plain stupid

Of course, the point I was trying to make after remembering it however, was that we can call a dice roll luck, or a mathematical calculation from the moment it leaves the hand (Or even from when it's shaken using things like force, movement, air pressure) but some people prefer a simple explanation, luck, god, chance, while others prefer science, maths, research.

There's no real way to give an answer to either one, without being bias. From a scientific, physical viewpoint, the complex explanation fits, simply for being in depth, while from an emotional, maybe even a more practical (my own bias here) standpoint, the shorter explanation fits just as well.

regardless of where this started, i like were this conversation is going. its not often you can discuss these things with someone and remain civil about it, at least not when you me =].
Hmm i sorta see what your saying, but even luck stretches it for me. A dice roll, for example, i beleive is reliant on physical factors rather than luck. From the moment the dice leaves the hand, it is possible to determine what it will land on (in theory), by looking at how it lands, how fast it is moving and in what direction, how heavy it is etc. Luck comes down to what was always going to happen after a particular moment. In this case, when the dice left the hand. The problem i have with my own theory, however, is that when you add a human element to this - an element that isn't consistent - you can no longer predict the outcome of an event. I suppose you could call yourself lucky if something goes your way, but only because it was always going to happen that way.

"And Clown, personally, i dont think that we should 'just have faith' at all, but if you are going to, i think you need to be able to justify it in a way that makes sense."

I agree with that.
But obviously everyone's different,

If you want my own reasoning for faith (Though not in the juedo-christian god) it can one, be a psuedo-method for putting faith/trust in one's self, in luck and chance, when it doesn't seem right to put it in ourselves. An example for that would be a dice roll, which mathmatically can be caculated by considering all the veriables, but much rather, it's easier to place the result of the dice throw in a god which is believed to beable to control these things, rather than to place the throw in ones own "luck".

I personally have some reasons for believing in my gods, but also as a man of logic, science and reason, as well as a high believer in odds and luck, I will almost always seek a physical explaintion to something before a divine explaination, although, I'd consider luck and chance a physical explaination.
I believe I've derailed myself from my point and I've lost where I was going with this

Her idea of faith related to her notion that everything is meant to happen, "fate" she called it, and therefore someone needs to have created that fate for us, that someone having to be God. And Clown, personally, i dont think that we should 'just have faith' at all, but if you are going to, i think you need to be able to justify it in a way that makes sense.

@ Iago-Disco

appliance does not always make something right.

sea turtles come to shore and lay their eggs, only for them to hatch and swim their way back to the ocean and their mothers.

If we applied that to humans, should we leave our children in the wild and let them find their own way? Sure, natural selection would benefit, but turtles and humans are different things,

As are the structure of planets and the unknown aspects of god and the existence of faith.

However, by definition, it is closed minded to deny, brush off or invalid the idea of a god (though not a god). It, once again by definition, is also closed minded to be unreceptive to the idea that "the world is made of minute grains of popcorn bound together by string and semen"

I've probably contradicted an earlier comment or this one at somepoint however.

I have to admit, the argument against the "we are the image of god" is a valid one, and the notion she made about you needing to see the unexplained as miracles (Each to their own, for some it's the unexplained, for some miracles, for some it's luck).

Although, I do see a problem, personally, with your reply to me, so I have to ask,

For what reason should someone have faith, why should someone have faith?

Its not close minded to disagree with someone who believes that the world is made of minute grains of popcorn bound together by string and semen... its sensible..
Now.... apply that to chrisitanity and thats what michaels done... close minded... pffff

Gabe

To Clowns

i dont call her ignorant for having faith necessarily. I do so because of
WHY she has faith.
Her point to me was that im stupid because i dont see all of gods miricals, just look at the comment on my page.

The only issue I see with your avatar is that it goes against rules here on Mibba. I personally don't care, and find artistic nude shots to be quite appealing with done correctly. Other than that, not much to say about your journal. People will believe what they want to. I don't believe in god, but don't mind when those around me do. One of my best friends is currently attending a Bible college and studying to be a youth minister. It just makes my conversations with him more interesting. ;)

I enjoy when people bring up the flaws in religions, in general. I mean, people can believe what they want, fine, but sometimes I wish they'd stop for a second, and stop following so blindly. Up and say "You're right, that doesn't really make sense" about something.

I've not actually seen this flaw be discussed before, though. Or considered it myself. Nice going.

This is MY opinion: Well I'm Christian. And God is not JUST a dream. He's NOT a dream. He's REAL. Of course, someone can't get IN the mind of God: What I mean is... someone can't just go there. Not even a Christian. UNLESS that Christian has the things you need like TRUE faith and etc. other things. God can SHOW you them. GOD CAN!!!!! Not...... us. GOD. It's like saying wind doesn't exist.... God is like the wind- you can't see Him but you can FEEL Him!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wait... you're calling someone ignorant for having faith, yet you laugh at them and claim their belief system is false.
You seem to be a little close minded there.

I'm a catholic, but I don't really care whether other people believe in God or not. It's their decision, just like my religion is special to me.

You argue your point very well =]

If you read all that and still want to talk to me about, i dont mind if you comment on this but address me on my page as well so it comes to my attention. I cant stand to leave a debate unfinished.