Gay Marriage

@ Kurtni
So you think individuals should damn their souls instead? Instead of seeking change, promoting change, or shopping around for a church that stays the fuck out of politics, they should instead commit an act they believe will eternally damn their souls and that of any children they remove from the church?

You act like all of these individuals go to a church that sits down every week and talks about how awful fags are. My church never talked about politics (non-Catholic, but still) because it wasn't appropriate.

Their church may not be anti-gay. You have absolutely no way of knowing if it is. Not all Catholic churches just sit there and bitch about laws and rhetoric.

@ dru's hammer.
Of course I think people should they should leave church, I think Christianity is false and harmful like any religion. I don't think my opinion on their spirituality is relevant at all to the discussion though.

Realistically, I think those religious individuals should belong to churches that don't hurt gay people/women/children/science/etc. What's so difficult about that? The Catholic Church is not that church. Individual parishes don't matter when the money is funneled elsewhere into an overarching governing body that hurts gay people. The same is true of any denomination that controls money from individual churches. What they preach about every week in a Catholic Church is irrelevant to their political involvement financially.

You're acting like the churches that hurt gay people are few and far between, when the evidence (anti gay laws, same sex marriage bans, etc.) shows they are numerous and a powerful force in politics.

dru's hammer.:

@ Kurtni
So you think individuals should damn their souls instead? Instead of seeking change, promoting change, or shopping around for a church that stays the fuck out of politics, they should instead commit an act they believe will eternally damn their souls and that of any children they remove from the church?

Maybe the church should also refrain from actively scaring its members into staying a part of it?

@ Alex; periphery.
I agree with that, but it's a complete separate can of worms.

@ Kurtni
Unfortunately, a Catholic leaving a Catholic church to go to a Christian one still means they'll burn in hell, according to their faith. I think it's perfectly legitimate for people to not want to burn for eternity.

@ dru's hammer.
Why can a Catholic disregard teachings about homosexuality so easily, but not teachings about conversion? Chances are if you support gay rights, you have conflict with a lot of church doctrines, so I don't see any reason to get all pious about conversion.

I don't think cherry picking through your religion's doctrines is a "perfectly legitimate" reason to hurt gay people. That's basically saying it's ok to hurt gay people if you're scared. Fear is the same tactic churches use to degrade homosexuality in the first place.

@ Kurtni
My boyfriend believes if he leaves his religion, he will burn in Hell. He doesn't believe that he will burn in hell for believing in equality. Believing in equality is not a mortal sin.

And I'm not saying it's okay to hurt gay people if you're scared. I'm saying you have every right to protect your mortal soul and that simply being a member of a religion does not hurt gay people. There are gay Catholics.

Kurtni:

I think anyone who identifies as a Catholic and Gay Rights supporters is completely ingenuine. You can't claim to support gay rights while proudly belonging to an organization that successfully oppresses gay rights and hurts LGBT people.

I don't see how I'm not genuine because I'm a Catholic and support gay rights. I don't think everyone has to support what their religion does 100%. There are a lot of things that my religion frowns upon greatly that I don't.

@ dru's hammer.
I never said being a member of a religion hurts gay people. I said being a member of a organization like the Catholic Church that funds anti-gay propaganda hurts gay people. There are gay people who support and promote ex-gay therapy; that doesn't mean they aren't hurting gay rights, so I don't see how that matters if some Catholics are gay.

By your logic, it's ok for me to be a member of the KKK and still claim to support racial equality. Never mind by actions or membership, but my words count!!!1 If I say I support something, then nothing else matters. Talk is cheap.

@ Jewel Nicole
Your membership and any money you donate to your church supports the Catholic Church as a whole, including all it's bigotry and discrimination, not your specific beliefs. Perhaps ingenuine wasn't the right word, but ineffective and fruitless seem more fitting.

@ dru's hammer.
yeah well my fucked up government has a big ass cenzurship hammer in their hand and anyone willing to go past the financial thing will get the corrupted way of going to jail for a very long time. there was a video on youtube up for an hour and then it got deleted - there was a very old homosexual war veteran talking to a politician, he was very respected and as soon as he went to the same sex marriage all that respect evaporated and he was treated like dirt.

@ z o m b i e
i agree that the church isnt alway bad, but in my country a lot of good influential people that ran the church and supported us "poor" people, were soon departed from the country by the order of the Vatican because some wise ass claimed that they were father - son related and BAM no more support the church is laughing at us while the government takes even more money where there is almost none left.

Kurtni:

I don't care about individual Catholics, I care about the governing organization that spends their money to discriminate against gay people anyways.

I think anyone who identifies as a Catholic and Gay Rights supporters is completely ingenuine. You can't claim to support gay rights while proudly belonging to an organization that successfully oppresses gay rights and hurts LGBT people.

Identifying as Catholic and belonging to a Catholic church - or, indeed, the Catholic Church are different things. People who've been excommunicated from the CC can continue to identify as Catholic, for example - technically, if you've been baptised into the CC, you're Catholic for all eternity. And, in fact, if you do leave the CC because of their stance on same-sex marriage / LGB rights (which in itself is pretty scary) but continues to believe in their major percepts regarding salvation, baptism, etc, there isn't anything other than Catholic with which you can identify - you can't say you're Protestant because you're not (you don't believe in sola fide etc) and if you say you're merely 'Christian' people will either ask you 'yes, but which kind?' or assume you're Protestant. I still identify as Eastern Orthodox although I left the BOR / Romanian Eastern Orthodox Church (mostly because of their overt homophobia) four years ago - this leaving of one's church might seem like a petty thing, very easy to achieve, etc but it's not - not because of the hell, eternal damnation etc stuff - in Orthodoxy if you don't constantly think you're going to hell, you're doing something wrong - it's because worshipping together with other people is both very comforting and very important for somebody's spiritual 'development' - you need to share your beliefs / ideas with other people in order to learn - how to connect with God, or how to read the Bible better / more accurate, or how to avoid 'temptation', or whatever your 'spiritual' goal(s) is / are. But the fact that leaving your Church is hard is important - it's precisely what makes it important to leave. I have absolutely no interest in converting to any other religion, I especially don't want to join any progressive Protestant churches because I think their stance on LGB issues is wrong - due mostly to the inherent very strong heteronormativity of Protestant attitudes towards sex / sexuality / gender / marriage - obviously, I think their stance on almost everything that's not an LGB issue is wrong as well, so why would I want to join them? Why would I say I'm nonreligious, when I'm actually religious? (The only time when I don't identify as Orthodox is on things like census forms, where I usually put other or nonreligious because I don't want tax money going to any churches.)

There are, indeed, a lot of fake / dishonest allies - and, yes, I do think that if you say you're part of the Catholic Church (or the BOR), you are supporting homophobia - you do need to leave the church - to come out, in a sense, to visibly show your strong and categoric rejection of their homophobic attitudes - but there's an important (though often confusing) distinction between membership to a Church and identifying with / as a certain part of the spectrum of Christian theology.

@ kafka.
I definitely agree with that. We were talking about membership in churches, so it was inaccurate for me to say "identifying" as ___. Membership is the concern, not necessarily one's personal religious beliefs outside of an organized Church system.

kafka.:

But the fact that leaving your Church is hard is important - it's precisely what makes it important to leave.

I agree with that 100%.

@ Kurtni
So, out of interest, what do you think of my situation. I'm gay and attend an MCC church. I am also baptised and confirmed Catholic although I no longer attend the church. I do, however, work for the diocese and am paid from Catholic money. Does this make me a hypocrite/ingenuine?

@ The Rumor
I revoked my use of the word ingenuine in exchange for ineffective. I don't mean this to be insulting, but since you asked, I would say absolutely yes. It's hypocritical to work for and accept money from a homophobic organization if you support gay rights.

I think that's a bit of a different situation though, because you voluntarily participate in church and you don't have the same degree of choice when it comes to finances and employment. Lots of people are stuck in similar situations where they work for corporations or organizations they dislike simply because they need the money. (ie, the gay people who work at Chik Fil A who were interviewed about why they work there come to mind).

kafka.:

There are, indeed, a lot of fake / dishonest allies - and, yes, I do think that if you say you're part of the Catholic Church (or the BOR), you are supporting homophobia - you do need to leave the church - to come out, in a sense, to visibly show your strong and categoric rejection of their homophobic attitudes - but there's an important (though often confusing) distinction between membership to a Church and identifying with / as a certain part of the spectrum of Christian theology.

I do not need to leave my church because I don't agree with them one hundred percent on everything. I go to church, not a lot but I go sometimes, yes, I've donated to my church. But I still don't think that means that I support homophobia. A lot of Christians are against gay rights as well because of Christianity and what's in the bible but there are a lot of Christians that do support gay rights.

All I'm saying is just because you identify yourself as being apart of a certain religion doesn't mean that you have to agree with every single thing that religion believes in. I have a different opinion when it comes to gay rights then the majority of the members of my religion, but that doesn't mean I need to leave it. Yes, it's sad that a big part of the religion I identify myself with is against equality and homosexuality, but that part is not me.

@ Jewel Nicole
The KKK used to maintain a stretch of high way in St. Louis. Even if my reasoning for donating money or joining the KKK is because I like clean high ways, I am still responsible for the racism they promote and I should be held accountable for where my money goes. I provided them with the resources to promote racism, thus I am supporting racism, even if I personally support racial equality. Actions make the difference, not good intentions.

I don't see why your membership in a homophobic organization is an exception to this logical chain of support. If you're a member of a homophobic organization, by default, you're supporting homophobia. If you don't want to support homophobia, don't be a member of a homophobic organization. Don't give money to homophobic organization.

I think the issue is that the Catholic churches primary objective is not to be homophobic or anti-equality. It's to worship the trinity and receive/serve communion. However somewhere along the way some very powerful people lost sight of this and now it's all going to heck. The people who are suffering socially are the regular church goer who are instantly judged for being Catholic.

I totally agree that the Catholic church is very corrupt. Ultimately that is why I left and had to sacrifice some of my belief system in order to do so (the sacraments were very important to me). Luckily, however, I believe in Christianity as a whole religion rather than separate ones so it was a justifiable thing for me. That being said, regarding my job there, the way I see it is it's just £850 less per year going to anti-equality purposes. I think it'd be different if I was working within the organisation or teaching of the church but the bottom-line is that I run a parent and toddler group. This group is attended by mostly non-church going mothers and at least I am presenting a side of culture that is different to the normal nuclear family image that is promoted by the church. I also have to acknowledge, on a personal level that I'd be an idiot to give up a job that is completely perfect for my situation being that I am a single-mother and there aren't exactly a lot of jobs like mine around. Not to mention that me not working will do absolutely nothing to bring down the Catholic organisation so, really, what is the point?

I guess my point is that there's a lot more to a situation than just hypocritical or not and you can't really make an instant judgement on that. What about Catholic church-goers who don't tithe?

@ Kurtni

Like Dru said above, not all Catholics are homophobic. The Church's main focus is not on homosexuality.

What you're claiming sounds a lot like all Catholics are homophobic and against homosexuality. That's not the case at all, there are Catholics that are supportive of gay rights, there are gay Catholics, I'm a bisexual Catholic.

It may sound hypocritical of me to identify myself with a group that the majority frown upon my own sexual orientation. People are able to have their own opinions that don't agree with their church all of the time.

The best example I can use is - politics. I'm a democrat that is voting for President Obama again, because I agree with him a lot of issues. However, there a few things I don't agree with him on, however, just because I don't agree with him on everything doesn't mean he won't get my vote in November.

@ Jewel Nicole
It may seem hypocritical of me to be a KKK member, but people can have their own opinions that don't agree with the KKK all the time.

I agree with the KKK about some things, like clean highways! So, it's socially responsible and acceptable for me to overlook all the horrible things they do. If you can donate money, and overlook the Catholic church financing things like Prop 8, then I can overlook financing of hate speech when I donate. After all, I don't support that part, so why should I care where my money ends up or who I hurt?

I can be a member of the KKK and still claim to support racial equality if you can be a member of the Catholic Church, and not bear the responsibility for it's homophobic message.

(I don't think I've ever heard anything more illogical and wrong. )

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I disagree with your political analogy, as you must have a president, and you do not have to be a member of a church. As kafka. pointed out, you do not even have to be a member of a church to partake in its beliefs.

I'm not sure why you said I think all Catholics are homophobic, because this entire discussion is specifically about Catholics who support gay rights.... I've made it clear I'm talking about the Catholic Church organization being homophobic.

@ Kurtni

The KKK's main idea is White Supremacy and radical ideas like that.

Catholicism was not based on homophobia. Homophobic ideas were evolved into it. It does not speak for every single Catholic.

I didn't become a Catholic because I hate gay people and agree with them that homosexuals are going to hell. I became a Catholic because of God, the sacraments, and the fundamentals of Catholicism that I learned about when I was young.

Half of my family are Catholics and none of them hate gay people. Most of them support marriage equality. Not all, but most.

Everyone is a hypocrite in one way or another for being apart of something that they don't one hundred percent agree with. That's how things change when people have different views.

Like Dru said before, there are priests that have been vocal about their support for marriage equality. It's not fair to judge every Catholic when they don't all think like that way.

Kurtni:

@ Jewel Nicole
It may seem hypocritical of me to be a KKK member, but people can have their own opinions that don't agree with the KKK all the time.

I agree with the KKK about some things, like clean highways! So, it's socially responsible and acceptable for me to overlook all the horrible things they do. If you can donate money, and overlook the Catholic church financing things like Prop 8, then I can overlook financing of hate speech when I donate. After all, I don't support that part, so why should I care where my money ends up or who I hurt?

I can be a member of the KKK and still claim to support racial equality if you can be a member of the Catholic Church, and not bear the responsibility for it's homophobic message.

(I don't think I've ever heard anything more illogical and wrong. )

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I disagree with your political analogy, as you must have a president, and you do not have to be a member of a church. As kafka. pointed out, you do not even have to be a member of a church to partake in its beliefs.

I'm not sure why you said I think all Catholics are homophobic, because this entire discussion is specifically about Catholics who support gay rights.... I've made it clear I'm talking about the Catholic Church organization being homophobic.

Yeah, we must have a president. It doesn't mean though that I cannot disagree with someone/somethings views on one thing and not agree with them on another or most things.

When you say a member of that church what exactly are you saying? I attend church sometimes and therefore considered a member of the Church, but no, I don't get involved with Church organizations.

I'm not even an extremely religious Catholic and I usually don't take things like this to heart but it really seems like you're saying because I go to church, a Catholic one, means I support homophobia by default, and I don't think it's a fair claim because it's completely false.