Gay Marriage

@ Jewel Nicole
I know there are Catholics who support gay rights. I know not all Catholics are homophobic. I know Priests have spoken up for gay rights to the point of being excommunicated. You keep repeating that like I'm disagreeing with you or something. I've acknowledged it over and over again, and I'm specifically talking about those non-homophobic Catholics....

My point is that regardless of individual beliefs, pro-gay Catholics are part of an organization that hurts gay people. Whether you like it or not, your Church helped pass Prop 8. Your Church stopped marriage equality in California with boatloads of money. Some of that money no doubt came from pro-gay Catholics, like you, who are indifferent to the church's homophobia and overlook it. By association, you are responsible for enabling their homophobia, even if morally you are in favor of gay rights. Just like I would be responsible for anything the KKK says if I became a member, whether I personally agree with it or not.

Intentions, original purposes, etc. do not matter. All that matters is actions, and the Catholic Church is a now prime actor in the fight against gay rights, thanks in part to your financial support.

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I think it's pretty loaded to say that by being a member of the church you can change it. You have no power over the governing organization of the Catholic church and they do not care at all about your opinion. Most pro-gay Catholics don't go to their church and try to convince people that marriage equality is necessary. Those individuals are shamed and forced to keep their beliefs to themselves.

I don't think people who don't believe in the burden of your soul and your relationship with God understand what it's like to decide to go to hell and send your children to hell.

Also, if Catholics are part of an organization that hurts people, are American citizens not part of a country that denies rights? Are Nebraska citizens all guilty of supporting anti-GLBT rhetoric because my state doesn't recognize gay marriage?

@ Kurtni
What about people who don't tithe/donate to the church?

@ dru's hammer.
If I was a member of the KKK and didn't donate to their cause, would that be ok? No way.

dru's hammer.:

Also, if Catholics are part of an organization that hurts people, are American citizens not part of a country that denies rights? Are Nebraska citizens all guilty of supporting anti-GLBT rhetoric because my state doesn't recognize gay marriage?

Of course American citizens are part of a country that denies rights, would you say otherwise? But, while you cannot help the country you are born into, you are absolutely in control of the church you patronize.

@ Kurtni
Really? My boyfriend had a choice in having Catholic parents that raised him Catholic?

@ dru's hammer.
He's an adult now and completely responsible for his choices regarding church.

Lots of people leave their church, and I think kafka. provided a pretty excellent explanation of just how hard it is but what it's still important, so it's not just my atheistic bias thinking this.

@ Kurtni
His mortal soul is at stake, according to his beliefs. You are suggesting that my boyfriend sacrifice his immortal soul to hellfire instead of simply doing what he is doing which is support pro-GLBT legislature and not contributing funds to a church you claim is hateful. I'm sorry, but i don't think any gay people are going to give him an immortal soul replacement, do you?

@ dru's hammer.

I don't believe in souls/hell/burning/etc., but yeah, that's pretty well what I'm suggesting from his perspective. I think LGBT rights in this world are far more important than someone's unconfirmed, unproven suspicions about souls and who God condemns to hell.

@ Kurtni

I don't think anyone disagrees with you there. Which is why people branch out from their religion and form their own views on certain topics and shouldn't be judged for still being attached to them on certain subjects and beliefs.

@ Kurtni
Like I said, I don't think it's exactly fair for someone who doesn't believe in that shit to tell a person to do that. To this individual, this is a very real thing. Would you go get run over by a car to prove the point that you're not against GLBT rights? I feel that's what you're suggesting these people do. The eternal of damnation of their soul is of no consequence to you because you don't believe it, but they do and you have no right to tell them to damn their souls or they're supporting causes they aren't. It just doesn't work that way.

@ dru's hammer.
Actually, I do have the right to criticize their religion, beliefs, and actions freely, and I'll continue to express my opinion that they're ineffective and false allies every single chance I get...it does work that way, lucky for me.

@ Jewel Nicole
You shouldn't be judged based on an organization you participate in freely and by choice? You shouldn't be held accountable for where your money and donations go?

It seems like you just want to have your cake, and eat it too. Why not just acknowledge that you've chosen to be a part of a church and donate money, even if that can negatively impact LGBT rights, because you think Church is important enough to warrant that? No need to dance around the subject and make a million excuses.

@ Kurtni
But you're wrong. Isn't that libel/slander? Defamation of character? You're saying people are supporting anti-GLBT causes because they believe in a specific faith. It doesn't matter if they donate to GLBT foundations or are gay themselves. It's not true, therefore it's not legal and protected by freedom of speech.

@ dru's hammer.
I think a simple dictionary definition of libel and slander will clear that right up. One's personal opinion of someone's character cannot be slander, as no fact is involved, put purely opinion

I'm not making up facts or intentionally lying, I just view the situation differently than you, which you seemingly cannot accept. But, if your only response is to chide "you're wrong" then I think we can just end this discussion, because I won't participate in that.

@ Kurtni
My point is that the existence of a soul and hell is irrelevant. That if a person truly believes they will burn in hell for all of eternity, that should be taken seriously. After all, this person is taking the rights of GLBT people seriously. Why should their right to the pursuit of happiness not count? When gay people want to get married and are told they have equal rights because they can marry a person of the opposite sex, we say it's total bullshit 'cause it is. I feel this is similar. They have the right to be a GLBT ally in any religion except Catholicism?

But yeah, I'll bow out. I'm sick and it's making me cranky.

Catholicism is the religion that keeps getting brought up, but I said any anti-gay church is an issue. Catholicism is different than most Protestant churches, because most protestant churches don't have an overarching, governing body in control of finances and political lobbying. In Catholicism, the individual church doesn't matter because the money ends up spent collectively, where as say, Methodist church A may lobby for marriage equality, and unaffiliated Methodist church B may fund the Family Research Council.

@ Kurtni
I won't ever believe that we can completely put aside people's actual viewpoints and say they are all against GLBT individuals because of what religious group they belong to. As with any religious group, different people will believe different things.

@ dru's hammer.
I didn't say they personally were against LGBT rights or that we should push their views aside. The entire premises of this discussion is that they, morally, are pro-LGBT.... I said they're enabling and supporting homophobia through their religion, if they voluntarily choose to participate in a bigoted church. That makes their support ineffective. If you disagree, fair enough, but I'll continue to hold them accountable for whatever anti-gay organization they participate in, church or otherwise.

This kind of logic is used with no organization or affiliation a person may have, and I don't think churches deserve special treatment.

@ Kurtni
I think their morals are based upon what their morals actually are, not what church they belong to. And I don't like to group a whole bunch of people together like that and generalize them, ever, so I would disagree with your way of doing that.

EDIT: Moving to religion and homosexuality

The Australian House of Reps voted down a same-sex marriage bill today, 42-98. Results here (under #29)
Article voices some of the differing positions.

Fact sheet released by ‎Doctors for Marriage Equality and Psychologists for Marriage Equality (Australian groups)