Breast-Feeding in Public

Kurtni:

@ Xsoteria
You didn't answer my question. I asked what exactly a woman needs to do to make things easier for the public. What can we do to prevent men from staring, because I don't think there is anything a woman can do, aside from never going out into public. People stare at women who can breastfeed with a cover like they're porn stars, even when nothing is showing. What exactly can us poor little women do to help ourselves? (Naturally, we need a man to tell us how to breastfeed. )

Yes the man is here to tell you and put you in your place. This entire discussion is being severely obstructed by this general attitude, (which ironically enough, seems quite sexist) where either I'm made out to be some oppressor of women, or man vs woman, etc etc.

I'm not making this about gender, or about sex, everyone else seems to be doing this. I was trying to be objective and approach the issue from a more neutral, social position where it doesn't really matter who or what you are, but the principles of your behavior and are they applicable in real world, or even more importantly, in other situations. But the fact that I'm a man seems to render most of my arguments invalid.

As for your question, I don't think that a woman who pulls a shirt over her breast as much as possible, or places a paper tissue over the exposed parts, or goes somewhere less exposed, or just generally shows her desire to not be looked upon - is in the wrong when she is offended for being persistently watched.

But the ones who do nothing to demonstrate their desire to not be looked upon, or don't move thier breasts out of plain view, are not in the right to be rude to the onlookers. Does this answer your question?

@ Xsoteria
Okay, so the only thing the woman did wrong was show up? If people are staring, telling them to leave her alone, is not attacking. It is telling them to stop being rude jerks and quit staring at her feeding her kid.

We aren't going to stay in the house, so deal with it.

@ Xsoteria
It answers my question, and shows you do not understand the principle of accommodating the child. Some babies don't care about shirts or tissues, and will breastfeed just fine, and what you said is great advice that all women are already perfectly aware of. But other babies won't. Other babies will not feed with a shirt/tissue/blanket touching them/near them, or preventing them from touching the breast (skin to skin contact stimulates breastfeeding, especially in newborns/young infants). Children also get hungry in very public places, where there is no where to go to be less exposed or for more privacy. You're assuming women have a choice where they do not.

I do think the fact that you're a man makes most of your opinions about how women should breastfeed invalid/inaccurate/unrealistic. I think I've been pretty blunt about that. I've been paraphrasing this discussion to my husband, and he's assured me he cannot even imagine having the audacity to tell a woman how she should and should not breastfeed. I certainly don't think all men have invalid opinions or ideas, because not all men feel like they are a superior authority on breastfeeding to begin with.

It's been two months since anyone has actually posted o this thread but I'm going to share my thoughts having read most of the discussion.

I do find that in England and Europe in general we are open minded when it comes to pretty much anything but there will be people who look down their nose at people who are doing or look like they're not normal. It's inevitable. But in most public places where I live the general public don't care about breast-feeding or anything like that because it doesn't concern them.

However I'm not surprised that hospitals offer free formula, they did when my mum gave birth to my sister, though when she refused (she had already had two children at the time, breastfeeding both) the midwives were surprised but I gather things have changed since the government started their healthy start initiative which encourages and advertises the advantages of breast milk over formula.

@ Lovebites xo
(The last person actually posted 8 minutes ago.)

dru will wait.:

We aren't going to stay in the house, so deal with it.

Are you fucking around with me? Is this some inside joke I'm being played on? If not, where did I suggest a woman should stay home or anything even remotely similar to that?

Kurtni:

@ Xsoteria
It answers my question, and shows you do not understand the principle of accommodating the child. Some babies don't care about shirts or tissues, and will breastfeed just fine, and what you said is great advice that all women are already perfectly aware of. But other babies won't. Other babies will not feed with a shirt/tissue/blanket touching them/near them, or preventing them from touching the breast (skin to skin contact stimulates breastfeeding, especially in newborns/young infants). Children also get hungry in very public places, where there is no where to go to be less exposed or for more privacy. You're assuming women have a choice where they do not.

I do think the fact that you're a man makes most of your opinions about how women should breastfeed invalid/inaccurate/unrealistic. I think I've been pretty blunt about that.

I don't think there's a place in public areas where the woman couldn't at least turn to face a wall or a corner, or go find a lonely bench. I honestly doubt that those extra 20 seconds she needs to step to the side or relocate briefly, the baby will starve or something. But if it really so happens, that the woman is in the middle of a 200 m wide busy sidewalk, my opinion on the matter would change.

It's nice to see that you have no practical problems with sexism, it's much easier to go through life without taking offence to these things, since they're abundant and there's really nothing we can do about it on our own, so breaking sweat about it is pointless.

I wasn't trying to be an expert on breastfeeding, I was trying to explain the more complex attribute of the situation - the social and interpersonal aspect of the scenario. I didn't take ALL the specific details of breastfeeding into account, so as I said, if the right circumstances occur, I would be understanding of the woman's offence (by offence I mean her being offended or upset, not her making an actual offence ) or outburst in case she's being persistently watched.

@ Lovebites xo
Doctors used to tell women that formula was better than breastfeeding and encouraged them to give formula. Companies like Nestle started developing formulas in the late 1800s, and they marketed them to doctors as safer/cleaner than breast milk (and also paid doctors handsomely to agree), and it had a really big impact on breastfeeding. By the 1940s, only something like 25% of babies (in the US) were breastfed, and it stayed a very low number like that until the 1970s, when groups like WHO started promoting research that breast milk was perfectly healthy, if not better than formula.

I think breastfeeding rates today in the US are close to 70%.

I wish I could share this article with this information, but it's in my human growth and development textbook, not online.

Oh I'm new to the forums :( it said two months on the last post I saw I feel like such a noob. I don't know what to do I've never even been on a forum for anything before today...

@ Kurtni
I'm glad to hear that actually, from what I have experienced from mothers I know they only breastfeed their children for the first few weeks if not days after birth. I think there should be more emphasis on the importance of continuing the feeding for the first few months of a childs life at least.

@ Xsoteria
I don't understand why you feel that a woman should move out of plain sight in order to feed their child. If they wish for people not to look then they can move and go wherever they like. Nobody should make a woman feel out of place or ashamed about feeding their child.

@ Xsoteria
No, that was in direct response to the first line of your post which said, "Women's part is her presence in public."

@ Lovebites xo
I think there is quite a bit of variation in that 70% statistic regarding how long women choose to breastfeed, whether it be for a month or for the whole first year. I think the WHO recommends breastfeeding for the first two years of life, but I doubt many people in the US/UK do so for a whole two years.

pravda.:

Children presumably haven't learnt better, and we routinely expect a lower standard of conduct/self-control/understanding from them compared to adult men. If the looks from women are the sexualised or disgusted looks (being discussed) of course those are equally inappropriate.

Completely agreed on the children. My point was that it is unfair to expect the sexualised/disgusted behaviour from men when women do the same. Maybe it happens more commonly from men but it's unfair to say that they are the only gender to discriminate.

Also, I think that the fact that it is more common suggests that probably, more education needs to be given to men regarding breastfeeding. It is something that women will often become naturally aware of, either through first- or secondhand experience. In addition, as a standard a lot of women know that boobs are not purely sexual items and as we see them every day, it's less of a big deal to us. Men are not in this position and - while this doesn't excuse discriminative behaviour - it may offer an explanation. Many people I've spoken to don't understand the reasons why women can't or won't breastfeed using a cover, in a restroom or only at home. Once they know these things, some of them may change the way they see breastfeeding.

Lovebites xo:

@ Xsoteria
I don't understand why you feel that a woman should move out of plain sight in order to feed their child. If they wish for people not to look then they can move and go wherever they like. Nobody should make a woman feel out of place or ashamed about feeding their child.

I don't think a woman should move out of the way or out of sight. Women should be able to do this whenever or wherever they wish. What I have a problem with, is that when they don't want to be looked at, seen or are ashamed, and make no effort to get out of plain sight, but expect everyone go out of their way not to look at them. That's all.

@ dru will wait.
And how was that interpreted as "you should stay home"?

Xsoteria:

I don't think there's a place in public areas where the woman couldn't at least turn to face a wall or a corner, or go find a lonely bench. I honestly doubt that those extra 20 seconds she needs to step to the side or relocate briefly, the baby will starve or something. But if it really so happens, that the woman is in the middle of a 200 m wide busy sidewalk, my opinion on the matter would change.

Why should a woman have to do this? Did you know that some infants can feed for over an hour? Did you know that a normal feed can take at least twenty minutes?

Can you imagine how mind-numbing it would be to stare at a wall or stand in a corner for that long, multiple times every single day for months on end? Two of the most common places that I breastfed (at my son's dictation) were on the bus (where there actually is no private place to go) or in a cafe. Why a women shouldn't sit in a public place and breastfeed their child without receiving a decent level of respect is beyond me.

@ Xsoteria
How is it not? You said that the problem on the women's side was being in public.

@ Kurtni
I know they suggest for up to two years but in main land Europe the average weening age is actually around three years old apparently, it's a shame people don't do that in the uk/us

@ Lovebites xo
The current medical advice is that there is no known benefit of breastfeeding beyond two years. Anything after that would be a mother's personal choice so I don't see why it's a shame that more people don't breastfeed until that time. Of course, there is nothing wrong with that but there is nothing to recommend it or make it superior either.

@ Lovebites xo
Really? I had no idea that was the case. I know there are parenting minorities (like the attachment parenting story Time magazine had a few months ago) that use long term breastfeeding in the US, but it just never seems to get any support or promotion from the medical community, at least in the US. Doctors are so ecstatic when someone breastfeeds for just a few months, that anything beyond a year here starts to seem bizarre. (When it shouldn't) I'm not sure if breastfeeding beyond two years is medically beneficial, but I wish women didn't feel "weird" for breastfeeding a toddler here.

@ dru will wait.
No I didn't. I said

Quote

Women's part is her presence in public. She's doing nothing wrong, up to the point where she starts attacking people who are passing her by and not interacting with her in any other way than with their eyes.

The Rumor:

Why should a woman have to do this? Did you know that some infants can feed for over an hour? Did you know that a normal feed can take at least twenty minutes?

Can you imagine how mind-numbing it would be to stare at a wall or stand in a corner for that long, multiple times every single day for months on end? Two of the most common places that I breastfed (at my son's dictation) were on the bus (where there actually is no private place to go) or in a cafe. Why a women shouldn't sit in a public place and breastfeed their child without receiving a decent level of respect is beyond me.

I've been growing up with 4 babies at different times in my life, and never have I seen any of them feed for an hour. I honestly doubt that is the a common occurrence. But ok, we already determined that my penis is making my take on breastfeeding invalid so ok.

There are circumstances (like in a bus) where women are justifiably in a favored position, where they have no choice but to put themselves in an uncomfortable situation. However, from the start of my part in this discussion I talked about situations where the woman has a choice, and makes it voluntary, calling on the etiquette of others not to look at her, without making the minor effort to not be looked at.