Breast-Feeding in Public

pravda.:

I'd appreciate if you didn't use such condescending language.

It wasn't condescending , I was saying beforehand, that in your anger you made it hard for me to actually address the issue and reply to your posts. I don't think it's condescending of me to point this out.

pravda.:

My first and most significant problem was you thinking it inappropriate for mothers feeding their babies to complain about being regarded as inappropriately sexual or as disgusting or immoral, or being regarded sexually. If you think you have a reasonable explanation, please do elaborate because I do not see the problem with a woman 'complaining' Side note, to who? Who is she irrationally complaining to - her family? The stranger who is staring? The owner of the building? The internet? Why do they have the right to stare but she does not have the right to complain about their staring? (Your previous explanation was that, by feeding their infant [or dressing a certain way] they give up their right to not be harassed by strangers.)

I never said any of this. If they are being regarded as immoral, they should object and be offended.

My previous explanation did not have any suggestion that the woman is giving up her right to not be harassed. I would appreciate it if you would finally take note of this. There is a very real and serious distinction between looking and harrassing someone. And, once again, I make distinction between looking and rudely staring, foaming at the mouth, dropping lewd comments etc etc.

pravda.:

Why, in any terms or insinuation, suggest that it should be the woman's responsibility to actively (going out of her way) avoid this? That attitude is exactly what perpetuates the sense of entitlement which encourages the behaviour you're supposedly against.

In the very next post, and pretty much in every other post I made (although maybe not explicitely enough for you), I held both parties take some responsibility. Maybe you think that the sense of entitlement only works one way.

I will repeat myself.. I don't think it's fine for people to stare and oogle at breastfeeding women, nor is it right for the woman to refuse to not provide them with the opportunity to oogle and then tell them to fuck off, or creep around or what ever. It's not like she should make an immense effort either, a simple paper towel or moving somewhere to the side would be perfectly fine.

pravda.:

Sorry, I must be misunderstanding you again. Did you just compare blowing harmful chemicals into another's face/lungs, urinating in public (creating odor/damage) and physical contact/harm to a mother feeding her infant?

I was explaining the principles of social contract. Accentuating the fact that the polite, and socially acceptable way of going about it, is where you both participate in making the public atmosphere comfortable for everyone, and not just expect everyone to make you comfortable while you do nothing.

@ Xsoteria
I am specifically talking about rape culture, not rape, which is why I was discussing rape culture.

Xsoteria:

I held both parties take responsibility.

And I disagree. A woman is not responsible for the behaviour of a man when she is neither looking at him, speaking to him, or otherwise visually/verbally/physically interacting with him; when she is in fact engaged in an activity which has nothing to do with him (and in fact has some degree of urgency)

Xsoteria:

nor is it right for the woman to refuse to not provide them with the opportunity to oogle and then tell them to fuck off, or creep around or what ever. It's not like she should make an immense effort either

I don't think you're getting the point, here. She does not have to make an effort to prevent someone being a creep. And if someone if being a creep, a person is well within their rights to point out that the person is being a creep - just like any stating of the obvious, e.g. a person would be allowed to say "you are breast-feeding" when a woman is breast-feeding. (Notwithstanding that such a comment may be construed as creepy.) If someone is staring at me because they consider what I am doing or wearing to be justification for them to stare and I disagree, I will happily (or not) tell them to fuck off. It is not my responsibility to curb my behaviour - again, my presence in public - in an [ultimately vain] attempt to stop the creeps of the world from being creeps. They are the ones in the wrong. I am not responsible for their wrong behaviour or the wrong beliefs which led to it, and I will not be shamed or commanded to not call them out on it.

Xsoteria:

It wasn't condescending

Yes, it was. Giving your approval of my responses as though I need it and asking me to take heed like a wayward child is condescending.

dru will wait.:

@ Xsoteria
I am specifically talking about rape culture, not rape, which is why I was discussing rape culture.

I'm not up to date with the "in the know" terms like "rape culture", so I obviously wasn't talking about it. I was talking about rape itself, which was being demeaned.

@ Xsoteria
Rape culture is the culture that women find themselves in because 1 in 3 women will be raped, one being sexually assaulted every two minutes. We live in a culture where we have to worry about rape constantly, which is a very specific thing that I was referring to, where, yes, we get really concerned about rape when men ogle us.

And if you're saying I was demeaning rape in my post, I wasn't and I completely resent the accusation.

pravda.:

A woman is not responsible for the behaviour of a man when she is neither looking at him, speaking to him, or otherwise visually/verbally/physically interacting with him; when she is in fact engaged in an activity which has nothing to do with him

But she is entitled to suggest the direction of this man's eyes.

pravda.:

I don't think you're getting the point, here. [...] I am not responsible for their wrong behaviour or the wrong beliefs which led to it, and I will not be shamed or commanded to not call them out on it.

Oh I think I'm getting the point. You've made it past quite a few sentances and drew several of my comments out of context in order to orchestrate my point in such a way where you will successfully argue your point while ignoring mine (or replying to things I haven't said, or said in a completely different way, with other purpose behind it). You did this several times in your previous posts, so I'm guessing that what I'm actually trying to communicate to you isn't going to affect the outcome too much.

@ Xsoteria
It seems in every post you make, you neglect the fact that the breastfeeding woman is caring for a child, and she's concerned with the child's needs, not grown adults with staring problems.

Babies don't care if they're in public places with men who cannot control themselves. Babies have no concept of shame or privacy. When they're hungry, they're hungry, and that's that. If a baby doesn't want to eat with a blanket over it's head or a cover, it won't eat with a cover. That is outside of the mother's control, and you can't expect her to do something counterproductive to her child.

You keep implying that a mother needs to take some sort of responsibility for breast feeding (as though she's done something wrong and deserves a consequence) when she can only do what her child accommodates. Breastfeeding is a legally protected act and women do not have the responsibility of making other people comfortable when they exercise their right to breastfeed. Their only responsibility is to the baby.

dru will wait.:

@ Xsoteria
And if you're saying I was demeaning rape in my post, I wasn't and I completely resent the accusation.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one, since I don't think that someone looking at you (especially if not rudely staring) is anywhere near the horror of actually being raped.

@ Xsoteria
I didn't say it was the equivalent. I said it wasn't the huge leap you were saying it was.

Xsoteria:

drew several of my comments out of context.

As I am doing here, I have quoted the relevant point/s being responded to. Since your main/central thesis is "women are [equally] responsible for inappropriate male attention" those quotes were entirely in context. That position is the context. If you don't like seeing it quoted, stop saying it.

dru will wait.:

@ Xsoteria
I didn't say it was the equivalent. I said it wasn't the huge leap you were saying it was.

I don't think people realize that a society that says objectifying/belittling women is acceptable is the same society that has such high prevalence of rape. "Nice" men try to separate the two, because they don't want to feel like they're doing anything wrong, or part of the problem. As long as they aren't raping, then it's cool. They can't see that the general treatment of women, even women who have not been raped, enables and encourages rape.

Kurtni:

@ Xsoteria
It seems in every post you make, you neglect the fact that the breastfeeding woman is caring for a child, and she's concerned with the child's needs, not grown adults with staring problems.

Babies don't care if they're in public places with men who cannot control themselves. Babies have no concept of shame or privacy. When they're hungry, they're hungry, and that's that. If a baby doesn't want to eat with a blanket over it's head or a cover, it won't eat with a cover. That is outside of the mother's control, and you can't expect her to do something counterproductive to her child.

You keep implying that a mother needs to take some sort of responsibility for breast feeding (as though she's done something wrong and deserves a consequence) when she can only do what her child accommodates. Breastfeeding is a legally protected act and women do not have the responsibility of making other people comfortable when they exercise their right to breastfeed. Their only responsibility is to the baby.

She is rightfully accommodating her own child, but if she herself is uncomfortable being exposed to the eyes of public, and does nothing to conceal herself from the eyes of the public, she should of course, do something about it.

What I'm talking about is not discomfrot of the baby, but her own discomfort and shame. If she doesn't want her breast to be seen, she has a responsibilty toward herself to make it at least difficult for her breasts to be seen. But doing nothing and then approaching others for not making her comfortable, is something I simply can't agree with.

If she isn't willing enough to make herself comfortable, why should EVERYONE else be?

(there are much easier ways of obstructing view from her breast, than putting a blanket over her child)

pravda.:

As I am doing here, I have quoted the relevant point/s being responded to. Since your main/central thesis is "women are [equally] responsible for inappropriate male attention" those quotes were entirely in context. That position is the context. If you don't like seeing it quoted, stop saying it.

No, my central point was that women in public places are a part of public, where everyone acts in a way where they will infringe on other people's freedom and comfort as least as possible. Where politeness and etiquette are a two way street. Expecting for everyone to bend over for you, while you make 0 effort in making it easier for them, you are in the wrong.

Which you would know, if only you read my comments [in context].

@ Xsoteria
Well, I think most mothers would say they frequently do things that are stressful and uncomfortable for the benefit of their child, because parenthood is not a time to be selfish.

I'm sure she'd much rather be breastfeeding somewhere private and intimate with her child, but you cannot control when a baby gets hungry. I'm incredibly modest and the thought of breastfeeding in public with men who think it's acceptable to stare at me makes me physically ill, but I'd suck it up and do it anyways if my kid was hungry in public. Of course I'd love to make myself comfortable, but there is no way to.

What exactly are you picturing a breastfeeding mother to look like, I'm starting to wonder. When a woman breastfeeds, you usually cannot see much at all. The entire nipple and most of the areola is covered by the baby's mouth, and the shirt is often pulled over the upper portion of the breast. Even if the shirt is pulled down, all you get is a little cleavage.

Hardly anything is exposed. I think my grandmother's swimming suit is more of a show than that, but people stare anyways, in spite of attempts at modesty. They stare not because the mother is being disruptive or doing something wrong, but simply because they're nosy or rude.

Xsoteria:

Expecting for everyone to bend over for you, while you make 0 effort in making it easier for them, you are in the wrong.

What should women do to make it "easier" on the public? Actually, how is a woman breastfeeding her child "hard" for the public? Why is it such a negative thing for the poor men in public to endure?

@Kurtni

Why are you telling me this? I'm not the one who's sexualising the whole thing. I'm not arguing what may or may not be the motivation of any potential onlookers. I'm talking about the social circumstances and expectations people in this thread seem to have when it comes to their actions or appearance in public.

@ Xsoteria
We expect people to act with decency and respect and not ogle women. You seem to think that's shocking and weird, but we don't. You suggest women change their actions instead of the men doing the bad one. I would assume she's telling you 'cause you just don't seem to get it.

dru will wait.:

@ Xsoteria
We expect people to act with decency and respect and not ogle women. You seem to think that's shocking and weird, but we don't. You suggest women change their actions instead of the men doing the bad one. I would assume she's telling you 'cause you just don't seem to get it.

Maybe I should just make a template for this thread. No I don't think that men who ogle women are doing a perfectly acceptable thing. I'm not sugesting that they shouldn't change their behavior. I'm simply trying to point out the woman's part in this, but I guess I'm simply not being repetetive enough.

@Kurtni.
"What should women do to make it "easier" on the public? Actually, how is a woman breastfeeding her child "hard" for the public? Why is it such a negative thing for the poor men in public to endure? "

Women who take offence to this and don't do anything to help themselves have to endure things. They are being mostly hard on themselves, and only then on those who may have a problem with it. Those who just look out of curiosity, or are indiferent don't really suffer any hardships (until the woman starts reacting or becomes rude in her reaction).

@ Xsoteria
There isn't a women's part. Women are doing nothing wrong and men are. You are suggesting women change their behavior because men will not modify theirs. That's the same argument we get for not wearing tight or revealing clothes otherwise we will get raped and since men can't help themselves, we should do it for them.

No. Men can take responsibility for their own damn actions. I am not their mother.

@ Xsoteria
You didn't answer my question. I asked what exactly a woman needs to do to make things easier for the public. What can we do to prevent men from staring, because I don't think there is anything a woman can do, aside from never going out into public. People stare at women who can breastfeed with a cover like they're porn stars, even when nothing is showing. What exactly can we poor little women do to help ourselves? (Naturally, we need a man to tell us how to breastfeed. )

@ dru will wait.
Women's part is her presence in public. She's doing nothing wrong, up to the point where she starts attacking people who are passing her by and not interacting with her in any other way than with their eyes. In the case she does something to try and demonstrate her desire to not be seen or looked upon, she has all the right in the world to take offence to people who persist in their watch fest.