Breast-Feeding in Public

@Audrey T

Lol that's a whole lot of jumps you made there, don't you think?

I think it's quite worrying that you think someone who looks at women who dress provocatively also somehow excuses rapists and what not.

And while I agree that breastfeeding and provocative clothing aren't really all that comparable in a sexual or inviting sense, I made that parallel for the purpose of voluntary action and its effect on other people in public places.

@ Xsoteria
"I just find it ridiculous that you or any breastfeeding woman would be shocked or offended if someone looked at your breasts when you whiped them out somewhere public."

We aren't talking about some sexually brazen act here, we are talking about passing nourishment to a child. Generally, breastfeeding women try to be discreet, but they are feeding a child, not whipping out their breasts for your ogling or entertainment.

This sounds very akin to 'women who show skin deserve to be ogled/whistled at/harassed etc'.

Just because men don't want to avert their eyes doesn't mean it isn't rude and degrading. it just means that man is really a boy who doesn't know how to respect women.

Xsoteria:

@Audrey T

Lol that's a whole lot of jumps you made there, don't you think?

I think it's quite worrying that you think someone who looks at women who dress provocatively also somehow excuses rapists and what not.

And while I agree that breastfeeding and provocative clothing aren't really all that comparable in a sexual or inviting sense, I made that parallel for the purpose of voluntary action and its effect on other people in public places.

The sad thing is, it's not a big leap at all. And the mindset that it's okay to leer at a women and that you're not in away wrong for it and to turn and say it's her fault or she's asking for it, is exactly what leads people to excusing rapists and other physical acts of violation and what makes people (usually men) think it's okay to touch woman because of [x insinuation made by her attire].

@ Xsoteria
So the child chose to be hungry in the store or whatever at that exact moment? The mother, of course, either having the choice to let her child scream and be hungry or feed it, which isn't really a choice at all? It's not so much a voluntary action as, y'know, being a good parent and doing the right thing thing. (Right thing as in feeding the kid, not breastfeeding, which is a personal choice. But not a personal choice as in they can just ... not do it when they don't feel like getting stared at by weird men.)

Audrey T:

The sad thing is, it's not a big leap at all. And the mindset that it's okay to leer at a women and that you're not in away wrong for it and to turn and say it's her fault or she's asking for it, is exactly what leads people to excusing rapists and other physical acts of violation and what makes people (usually men) think it's okay to touch woman because of [x insinuation made by her attire].

Yes it is, it's universes apart, and I think it's quite insulting for you (or anyone else) to associate so closely the act of being looked to the act of rape. Primarily towards victims of actual rape.

Not to mention that while rape is rightfully illegal, looking rightfully isn't.

dru is screaming.:

@ Xsoteria
"I just find it ridiculous that you or any breastfeeding woman would be shocked or offended if someone looked at your breasts when you whiped them out somewhere public."

We aren't talking about some sexually brazen act here, we are talking about passing nourishment to a child. Generally, breastfeeding women try to be discreet, but they are feeding a child, not whipping out their breasts for your ogling or entertainment.

This sounds very akin to 'women who show skin deserve to be ogled/whistled at/harassed etc'.

Just because men don't want to avert their eyes doesn't mean it isn't rude and degrading. it just means that man is really a boy who doesn't know how to respect women.

And just how do you know that the onlooker is being sexual about it? Maybe he thinks it's a beautiful act of nourishment and care and admires it as such. You and the posters who react which such ferocity to my comments seem to be having the perverted perspective in the first place.

pravda.:

Newsflash, which I assume will come as news if you are making sexist statements like this, a woman who dresses up may not be doing it for the "attention of random passerbyers." A woman might want attention from specific people, or maybe she is dressing the way she wants to, because she feels good dressing like that. Is she asking to be stared at? No more than she would be asking for whistles, lewd comments or sexual assault. Unless a woman asks someone for attention, how dare you suggest she is feigning her offence (or horror, or fear, or any emotion that the received attention elicits) or that she was asking for the response from "random passerbyers." If I dressed up for my partner, that's who I want the attention from. And "random passerbyers" have no greater rights over my person than if I was covered head to toe.

Having said that, I'll reiterate my first point, the point everyone else on this page made: people, legally, have the 'right' to stare at anyone. But I can think of no circumstances where it socially appropriate or acceptable to do so.* If you're arguing the former, no-one is disagreeing. If you're arguing the latter, even if we suggested that lewd/sexual acts fell under 'fair game' for staring, like Audrey said - breastfeeding is neither lewd nor sexual.

(*Excepting violence, but I'd suggest more than staring is morally desirable, i.e. yelling out, intervening, or getting help.)

I don't even know what to say after reading this comment, I fail to see how anything I said was sexist and associations with rape and assault are just so far out that I'll ignore it altogether.

dru is screaming.:

@ Xsoteria
So the child chose to be hungry in the store or whatever at that exact moment? The mother, of course, either having the choice to let her child scream and be hungry or feed it, which isn't really a choice at all? It's not so much a voluntary action as, y'know, being a good parent and doing the right thing thing. (Right thing as in feeding the kid, not breastfeeding, which is a personal choice. But not a personal choice as in they can just ... not do it when they don't feel like getting stared at by weird men.)

If she is uncomfortable with revealing her breasts in public, at that moment, she should cover herself up or move somewhere. It's really for her own comfort she should do this. But no, lets just expect that everyone around her, potential hundreds of random passangers, will be 100% politically correct and not look.

If anything, THAT is the immature attitude.

Xsoteria:

I fail to see how anything I said was sexist

Oh, I apologise. Please, take this Nice Guy trophy for being unreasonably attacked by a rabid misandrist.

Xsoteria:

she should cover herself up or move somewhere. It's really for her own comfort she should do this.

Correct, any woman who could be potentially viewed as sexually desirable and resultantly stared at, leered at or pursued should cover herself or move somewhere. Or just stay indoors. For her own comfort!

And just to make sure this is perfectly clear, I don't think staring at people is perfectly fine. I just think that knowingly and consciously getting yourself into position where you very well know you will be looked at, and then reacting like some of the posters suggested (fuck off etc.) is also wrong.

Xsoteria:

I just think that knowingly and conciously getting yourself into position where you very well know you will be looked at, and then reacting like some of the posters suggested (fuck off etc.) is also wrong.

This sounds very much like the argument that women who go to clubs or bars should know better when they get raped.

It isn't our fault men don't know how to behave and they should be the ones to correct their behavior, not the women.

Just like lists of 'how not to let women get raped' should be directed at the men who rape and not the women who are. It isn't up to us to correct our behavior because they refuse to correct theirs. And if you think it is, that's sexism.

@ pravda.
I don't understand why this upsets you so much.

I never said any of the things you're coming up with and your strawmen just make it harder to reply to your posts without going way off topic.

dru is screaming.:

This sounds very much like the argument that women who go to clubs or bars should know better when they get raped.

It isn't our fault men don't know how to behave and they should be the ones to correct their behavior, not the women.

Just like lists of 'how not to let women get raped' should be directed at the men who rape and not the women who are. It isn't up to us to correct our behavior because they refuse to correct theirs. And if you think it is, that's sexism.

Again, another strawman. Getting raped and being looked has nothing in common. It's so obscenely different that I'm quite frankly shocked that mibba posters (with the reputation of being politically correct, liberal and thoughtful) can ignore the awful insinuations and abridgment towards the actual act of rape in their own posts.

Xsoteria:

I don't understand why this upsets you so much.

Actually, I'm not upset. I am angry. Because sexism makes me angry and your remarks are sexist. You're supporting the sexualisation and shaming of breastfeeding (by others if not yourself), you're supporting the 'right' for men to make sex objects of women at the men's choosing, and you're dismissing female experiences of sexism and harassment. You're demanding (or, sorry, educating us with the suggestion) that women remove themselves from the public sphere rather than expose themselves (again putting the blame/onus on the woman) to harassment. Saying you don't see the sexism in what you're saying is not some genius defence against accusations of sexism.

And since I am neither being chill nor funny, here is someone else to do it for me. If you want an indication of what harmless attention from strangers feels like.

@ Xsoteria
No, it isn't. Not having to deal with rape culture everyday may has made you to believe that it isn't, but there is not that big of a leap from getting leered at to getting raped or sexually assaulted. How dare you try to make me feel like a bad person for thinking that. When the guy at night looks at me with a sick fucked up smile on his face, you can bet the first fucking place my mind goes is that my keys are in my pocket so I can slash this guy's face if he wakes one wrong move, along with the fear that when I'm too scared and i scream nothing comes out, so I better get that one hit in or I'm fucked.

@ Xsoteria
I completely agree with the contrast in looking and raping. Just like there's a massive difference between ogling and looking. Sometimes men will look at women's breasts. The problem lies in when they don't correct their behaviour by looking away and begin to stare as if its their natural born right.

Also, it's not that hard to tell who is staring at you breast feeding because they're admiring it (which I never minded) and staring out of disgust. The latter is not okay because it makes a woman who is doing something that should be considered as normal and placing her baby in a buggy feel like she is immoral and doing something unnatural and lewd, which it clearly is not.

If someone looks, often people will look because they can't tell what you're doing at first glance, then that's fine. If they stare or watch because they feel it is a spectator sport, that's a bit awkward and not okay.

pravda.:

Actually, I'm not upset. I am angry. Because sexism makes me angry and your remarks are sexist. You're supporting the sexualisation and shaming of breastfeeding (by others if not yourself), you're supporting the 'right' for men to make sex objects of women at the men's choosing, and you're dismissing female experiences of sexism and harassment. You're demanding (or, sorry, educating us with the suggestion) that women remove themselves from the public sphere rather than expose themselves (again putting the blame/onus on the woman) to harassment. Saying you don't see the sexism in what you're saying is not some genius defence against accusations of sexism.

This is a much more appropriate response. I must admit I'm not glad you're angry, not because I overly care of your feelings, but because you are still misinterpreting my points, words and attitudes. I just feel like you're arguing with me by replying to posts you made for me.

I'll try and explain myself again. I do NOT support shaming of breastfeeding. I think breastfeeding is a natural process which is unrightfully tabooed and sometimes ostricized. I think that every woman should have the right to breastfeed her child whenever she deems it right. It should be an undeniable right of both her and her child. I think they should be able to do this in public, on tv, or wherever it's possible and called for.

I am simply saying (pay attention now please), that if she is uncomfortable with being exposed, or is in fear of being watched in the act, and it all makes her uncomfortable, the logical train of thought calls not for the assumption that all the people around her will not look, but that she will make it harder, or impossible for them to do so, simply to avoid her own discomfort. Relying on EVERYONE ELSE, to not look, is both impractical and illogical.

First of all, people are not nice and overtly polite and etiquetted toward other strangers. Calling upon their political correctness, compassion and understanding is not the most logical path to take in most situations. It's not nice to think of the world this way, but it's how things unfortunately are. Second of all, at some point, people passing by will have to actually look at her to determine that she is in fact, breastfeeding. If she is not comfortable with this, it is only logical that she covers herself up. NOT because it's how it should be, but because people will have to actuall first look at her to see that they (should look away or whatever). It makes absolutely no sense in that case, not to cover up.

I'll be glad to continue explaining why I think it's not appropriate for breastfeeding women to complain about others refusing to look away, after I am sure that we got this first part clear, and that you understand what it is I was actually saying.

dru will wait.:

@ Xsoteria
No, it isn't. Not having to deal with rape culture everyday may has made you to believe that it isn't, but there is not that big of a leap from getting leered at to getting raped or sexually assaulted. How dare you try to make me feel like a bad person for thinking that. When the guy at night looks at me with a sick fucked up smile on his face, you can bet the first fucking place my mind goes is that my keys are in my pocket so I can slash this guy's face if he wakes one wrong move, along with the fear that when I'm too scared and i scream nothing comes out, so I better get that one hit in or I'm fucked.

You have no idea of my experience with rape, so I would appreciate if you didn't make comments toward it. I may not have experienced "rape culture" or what ever, but I'm fully aware of how awful and real rape can be. It is exactly why I'm abhored by your comparison, that looking (not sickly grinning, staring, oogling or what the fuck ever, just looking) is one step away from rape.

The Rumor:

If someone looks, often people will look because they can't tell what you're doing at first glance, then that's fine. If they stare or watch because they feel it is a spectator sport, that's a bit awkward and not okay.

It's not okay. It would take quite a dislodged person to spot the breastfeeder, come close, and stick around while rudely watching. The woman should be possibly alerted, because if a person has no awareness enough to be either more subtle or not do it at all, chances are his mindset is off and he may even try something else. She should possibly get away from him or ask for help.

This isn't what I was talking about though. It's the overreaction to people who may ignore the unspoken social and moral law of thoughtfully looking away so as to make the woman, who refuses to help herself avoid her own discomfort, feel more comfortable in a situation where she is in some way affecting other people and their freedom around her, by her presence alone.

I'm not sure why everyone assumes only men look at/ stare at breast feeding women. Women and children look just as much.

Every day on the street, we respectfully avoid bumping into other people walking in the street, we hold our bladders in until we reach a toilet, we try not to blow smoke into random non smoker's face, not scream or make unthoughtful noise. It is a common courtesy to do this, and we expect others to do the same in return. We try and make this process as least difficult for others as we can. For instance, we step aside and change our direction so as to not bump into another person. Two people do this, because it is only appropriate. You may you strut around the street and refuse to try and avoid bumping into others, simply because it's basic etiqette for people to step aside a little and you expect them to do so. Not modifying your own behavior to make it easier or more comfortable for them, and getting angry or upset with them for bumping into you or for them making a comment about you strutting around, is not the right thing to do either.

Women who breastfeed should be able to do so wherever or whenever they feel like. If they do not feel the need to cover themselves up, and are offended by being looked at, and think people should not look - are not rightfully complaining at the looks of random passers. They have not fulfilled their side of the social contract. If it is not nice for the eyes and bare breasts to meet, and they are not trying to keep their breasts out of sight, someone will naturally feel that they should not keep their eyes away either.

It may not be nice, politically correct, or respectful, but it's how things work, and it is illogical to think that they will. Especially if you do nothing at all to step out of someone's way.

Xsoteria:

This is a much more appropriate response... I am simply saying (pay attention now please)

I'd appreciate if you didn't use such condescending language. I am not a child. You are not my teacher.

Xsoteria:

I'll be glad to continue explaining why I think it's not appropriate for breastfeeding women to complain about others refusing to look away, after I am sure that we got this first part clear, and that you understand what it is I was actually saying.

My first and most significant problem was you thinking it inappropriate for mothers feeding their babies to complain about being regarded as inappropriately sexual or as disgusting or immoral, or being regarded sexually, or 'staring' which could be an ambiguous mixture of those and/or other responses. If you think you have a reasonable explanation, please do elaborate because I do not see the problem with a woman 'complaining' - side note, to who? Who is she irrationally complaining to - her family? The stranger who is staring? The owner of the building? The internet? Why do they have the right to stare but she does not have the right to complain about their staring? (Your previous explanation was that, by feeding their infant [or dressing a certain way] they give up their right to not be harassed by strangers.)

Xsoteria:

It would take quite a dislodged person to spot the breastfeeder, come close, and stick around while rudely watching.

This is probably the centre of the issue. You seem to think that it is a rare occurrence for someone to watch a breastfeeding woman rudely. If sexual assault is far more removed, and one in six women are sexually assaulted, what do you think the statistics are on harassment of breastfeeding women? Why, in any terms or insinuation, suggest that it should be the woman's responsibility to actively (going out of her way) avoid this? That attitude is exactly what perpetuates the sense of entitlement which underlies the behaviour you're supposedly against.

Xsoteria:

Every day on the street, we respectfully avoid bumping into other people walking in the street, we hold our bladders in until we reach a toilet, we try not to blow smoke into random non smoker's face, not scream or make unthoughtful noise.

Sorry, I must be misunderstanding you again. Did you just compare blowing harmful chemicals into another's face/lungs, urinating in public (creating odor/damage) and physical contact/harm to a mother feeding her infant?

The Rumor:

I'm not sure why everyone assumes only men look at/ stare at breast feeding women. Women and children look just as much.

Children presumably haven't learnt better, and we routinely expect a lower standard of conduct/self-control/understanding from them compared to adult men. If the looks from women are the sexualised or disgusted looks (being discussed) of course those are equally inappropriate.