Being Able to Choose the Sex of Your Child

Jewel Nicole:

kafka.:

And some people are the type of person who molests children. That doesn't make their choice perfectly okay.
Isn't the pursuit of happiness a natural right too? By not adopting you're robbing a child of their right to happiness and for what? personal satisfaction that is based on nothing more than prejudice. It is perfectly okay for the government to jump into someone's life and tell them what they can't do because laws protect us all. What if you were an orphan? Would you think it's perfectly okay for nobody to want to be your family simply because you're not genetically theirs? Do you think discrimination is perfectly okay? Many people think gender equality isn't for anyone, that there are some women who don't deserve to be treated equally, is there nothing wrong with that?

We're talking about something that isn't harming anyone. We're not talking about molesters or anything like that, so, please, don't put that in the same category because it's not the same thing.

I am an orphan, both of my parents are deceased, obviously, if you can see my signature it's stated so clearly.

It has nothing to do with discrimination at all, it's a preference. Not everyone adopts children because it's just not something that everyone wants to do. Sure, it would be great if every single person would adopt a kid, but that's not the case, everyone isn't, that doesn't make them a horrible person because they chose not to adopt and want children of their own.

Were you raised in an orphanage?
Not adopting is harming people, it's harming the children that lost their chance at an ordinary childhood. Thousands and thousands of children are never adopted and many of them end up as emotionally damaged as children who go through sexual abuse. It is the exact same thing.
Discrimination's essentially just a preference too. You prefer men to women, whites to blacks, Christians to Muslims, etc. Not everyone is tolerant because it's just not something that everyone wants to do. Sure it would be great if we managed to eradicate discrimination, but if you perpetrate it that doesn't make you a horrible person because it's your choice to discriminate.

I was for a few years, yes. I turned out fine, thankfully.

ALSO, I know people that have adopted some of my foster brothers and sisters and they got abused there too. Not all people that adopt will treat the kid great, some treat them real sh*tty. Take it from someone who knows the system and the people that are in it. The good, bad, and ugly.

Discrimination is based on hate, in my opinion. Preference is not. Just because someone may choose to have a boy doesn't mean that they hate girls.

Jewel Nicole:

I was for a few years, yes. I turned out fine, thankfully.

ALSO, I know people that have adopted some of my foster brothers and sisters and they got abused there too. Not all people that adopt will treat the kid great, some treat them real sh*tty. Take it from someone who knows the system and the people that are in it. The good, bad, and ugly.

Discrimination is based on hate, in my opinion. Preference is not. Just because someone may choose to have a boy doesn't mean that they hate girls.

But a few years is different from your whole life. You got to have parents and know them and live with them, you understood why you where an orphan. I understand that some people find it difficult to adopt older children/teenagers and I'm not even asking that much from them, but adopting a baby/young child is exactly like having your own.

Most frequently children get abused by somebody in their family or group of people their family knows, whether they're adopted or not. It's not a novelty. I don't think you'd adopt someone with the sole purpose of abusing them, or would you?

What does it mean if they choose to have a boy and not a girl?

kafka.:

But a few years is different from your whole life. You got to have parents and know them and live with them, you understood why you where an orphan. I understand that some people find it difficult to adopt older children/teenagers and I'm not even asking that much from them, but adopting a baby/young child is exactly like having your own.

No, it's not the same. Your baby came from you. You created it. It's apart of you. There's a huge difference, please, realize that.

kafka.:

Most frequently children get abused by somebody in their family or group of people their family knows, whether they're adopted or not. It's not a novelty. I don't think you'd adopt someone with the sole purpose of abusing them, or would you?

I wouldn't, but it has happened. I've seen it.

kafka.:

What does it mean if they choose to have a boy and not a girl?

It means that they preferred the boy. Just like if there was an apple and an orange in front of me and I chose the apple. It doesn't mean that I hate oranges, it's just that I preferred the apple. It's all about preferences. That's the point that I'm trying to make.

Jewel Nicole:

No, it's not the same. Your baby came from you. You created it. It's apart of you. There's a huge difference, please, realize that.

I fail to see the difference. A child won't act or think in a certain way just because it's yours. No real parent loves their children just because they look like them or share genes.

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I wouldn't, but it has happened. I've seen it.

That doesn't make your point any more valid.

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It means that they preferred the boy. Just like if there was an apple and an orange in front of me and I chose the apple. It doesn't mean that I hate oranges, it's just that I preferred the apple. It's all about preferences. That's the point that I'm trying to make.

Nobody prefers oranges to apples because they think apples are just as good as oranges, that doesn't make any sense.

^ But genetic offspring are more subject to intermediate psychological bonding.

The Doctor:

^ But genetic offspring are more subject to intermediate psychological bonding.

But it's not impossible for adopted children to bond with their new parents, it just takes more time. If that's what you mean.

kafka.:

I fail to see the difference. A child won't act or think in a certain way just because it's yours. No real parent loves their children just because they look like them or share genes.

Personality traits have been scientifically proven to be passed down to their offspring. But that's not the point.

There are millions of people that would prefer to have their own children rather than adopt and that's totally fine. I don't see why you find it necessary to say "you shouldn't choose the gender of your own baby, you should adopt." That's basically what you're saying and, to me, that's not right. That's interfering with someone's personal life and choices, which you shouldn't do, especially because it wouldn't be harming anyone.

kafka.:

That doesn't make your point any more valid.

Yes, it does, because I've seen it happen. I know it happens and that's an extremely valid point.

kafka.:

Nobody prefers oranges to apples because they think apples are just as good as oranges, that doesn't make any sense.

It does actually. It means that you like one a little more than the other, it doesn't necessarily mean that you hate the other, it wouldn't make much sense to make that assumption, in my opinion.

kafka.:

But it's not impossible for adopted children to bond with their new parents, it just takes more time. If that's what you mean.

No, it's not impossible, that's why people have the opportunity to adopt because it is possible. But that still doesn't mean that it's not okay for people not to adopt.

kafka.:

But it's not impossible for adopted children to bond with their new parents, it just takes more time. If that's what you mean.

That would depend on their age too.

I was adopted at 3 years old. I bonded instantly.

We still need someone to argue AGAINST being able to choose the sex of your child for the Mibba Debates section of the Mibba Magazine. If you’re interested (and you can write up an argument within the next couple of days – no more than 1000 words), please PM me.

I don't see anything at all wrong with it.

I've always wanted 2 boys and 2 girls. If I kept having boys, or had only 1 girl and kept having boys, or vice versa for both situations, I'd jump at the chance to choose the sex of my next child. I wouldn't love the "extra" boys/girls any less, I've just always wanted at least 2 boys and 2 girls. Does that make me a bad person?

I dislike the idea of choosing your baby's sex for reasons similar as to why I dislike the idea of intersex babies undergoing surgeries so that they can neatly fit society's dichotomous understanding of gender.

Firstly, that you may choose the sex of your baby doesn't guarantee that you're also choosing their gender identity (sex = chromosomes/genitalia, gender identity = how you feel on the inside). There is still no definite understanding of transsexuality (gender identity and sex not matching) in the scientific community, but research has indicated that it may be genetic. So how are doctors sure that choosing the baby's sex won't cause any sort of gender-related issues later on in life?

Also, if children know that their parents chose their sex (meaning that they really wanted the child to be a boy/girl), they might feel pressured to meet certain expectations and fit certain gender roles so that they can be their parents' perfect little girl/boy. And what happens if the baby isn't born the chosen sex (if something medically goes wrong)? Wouldn't that cause resentment in some families?

That someone would choose to have a girl over a boy or viceversa means that they would feel about and/or treat their children differently based on their gender (at least to some degree). I'm not saying they would love them more or less, but there would be a difference (otherwise, why would you want to choose their gender?).

I'm not against it for medical reasons, but many couples would certainly not do it for that.

pierrot the clown.:

I dislike the idea of choosing your baby's sex for reasons similar as to why I dislike the idea of intersex babies undergoing surgeries so that they can neatly fit society's dichotomous understanding of gender.

Firstly, that you may choose the sex of your baby doesn't guarantee that you're also choosing their gender identity (sex = chromosomes/genitalia, gender identity = how you feel on the inside). There is still no definite understanding of transsexuality (gender identity and sex not matching) in the scientific community, but research has indicated that it may be genetic. So how are doctors sure that choosing the baby's sex won't cause any sort of gender-related issues later on in life?

They aren't sure. Just like they aren't sure if people will develop diseases, conditions, or any other sort of medical problems later on in life.

pierrot the clown.:

Also, if children know that their parents chose their sex (meaning that they really wanted the child to be a boy/girl), they might feel pressured to meet certain expectations and fit certain gender roles so that they can be their parents' perfect little girl/boy. And what happens if the baby isn't born the chosen sex (if something medically goes wrong)? Wouldn't that cause resentment in some families?

Before they choose they have to understand that there's always a chance that it might not work, that's why there's a lot of legal documents and such that have to be signed before going through with the certain procedure. There's always that small chance, y'know? Just like there's always a chance that people will develop different medical problems later in life.

pierrot the clown.:

That someone would choose to have a girl over a boy or viceversa means that they would feel about and/or treat their children differently based on their gender (at least to some degree). I'm not saying they would love them more or less, but there would be a difference (otherwise, why would you want to choose their gender?).

I'm not against it for medical reasons, but many couples would certainly not do it for that.

It's their child though. No one else's. If they want to choose the gender then they should be allowed to. It's all about preference and no one should be able to stand in the way of that...

Jewel Nicole:

They aren't sure. Just like they aren't sure if people will develop diseases, conditions, or any other sort of medical problems later on in life.

Exactly. Then what? "Oh, let's just make experimental babies to see if they turn out healthy and all." Unless it is theoretically proven that none of that will happen, I won't agree with it. (I focused on transsexuality because doctors don't even know yet what exactly causes it, so they're obviously not going to know how to handle that while choosing a baby's sex.)

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It's their child though. No one else's. If they want to choose the gender then they should be allowed to. It's all about preference and no one should be able to stand in the way of that...

I have a problem with the fact that they would feel differently about having a girl than a boy, but that's honestly another discussion about gender itself and I'm not going to go into that. I just said it in response to the way people were debating over how you shouldn't like girls more or boys more or whatever.

pierrot the clown.:

Exactly. Then what? "Oh, let's just make experimental babies to see if they turn out healthy and all." Unless it is theoretically proven that none of that will happen, I won't agree with it. (I focused on transsexuality because doctors don't even know yet what exactly causes it, so they're obviously not going to know how to handle that while choosing a baby's sex.)

Based on what your saying then you'd agree that we should stop reproducing in general, because we don't know what will happen later on in life...

pierrot the clown.:

I have a problem with the fact that they would feel differently about having a girl than a boy, but that's honestly another discussion about gender itself and I'm not going to go into that. I just said it in response to the way people were debating over how you shouldn't like girls more or boys more or whatever.

Why do you have a problem with what someone else feels? I mean, sure, it's fine to have an opinion on it but to point the finger and push your beliefs on someone else is wrong.

Jewel Nicole:

pierrot the clown.:

Exactly. Then what? "Oh, let's just make experimental babies to see if they turn out healthy and all." Unless it is theoretically proven that none of that will happen, I won't agree with it. (I focused on transsexuality because doctors don't even know yet what exactly causes it, so they're obviously not going to know how to handle that while choosing a baby's sex.)

Based on what your saying then you'd agree that we should stop reproducing in general, because we don't know what will happen later on in life...

pierrot the clown.:

I have a problem with the fact that they would feel differently about having a girl than a boy, but that's honestly another discussion about gender itself and I'm not going to go into that. I just said it in response to the way people were debating over how you shouldn't like girls more or boys more or whatever.

Why do you have a problem with what someone else feels? I mean, sure, it's fine to have an opinion on it but to point the finger and push your beliefs on someone else is wrong.

As I said, it's another discussion. I also have a problem with what other people feel if they're being racist. You wouldn't call it "pushing my beliefs" on them if I told them to stop being racist, would you? It's kind of like that. Why? It'd he hard to explain it all and it's not what this thread is for.

Also, me being against doctors genetically interfering in a baby's development (not for medical reasons) is completely different to saying I'm against reproduction in general. Seriously?

^Well, you said "So how are doctors sure that choosing the baby's sex won't cause any sort of gender-related issues later on in life?", right?

Is that the only issue that you're concerned about then? I mean, there are babies being born every day and there's a chance that they'll develop medical problems later on in life (regardless if their sex was chosen or not.)

What if, let's say, a baby sex was chosen because of medical reasons, then later on in their life they suffer from gender identity issues or other issues that related to their gender? What then?

Racism and this issue are different though, so using that as a comparison isn't correct, see what I mean?

Jewel Nicole:

^Well, you said "So how are doctors sure that choosing the baby's sex won't cause any sort of gender-related issues later on in life?", right?

Is that the only issue that you're concerned about then? I mean, there are babies being born every day and there's a chance that they'll develop medical problems later on in life (regardless if their sex was chosen or not.)

What if, let's say, a baby sex was chosen because of medical reasons, then later on in their life they suffer from gender identity issues or other issues that related to their gender? What then?

Racism and this issue are different though, so using that as a comparison isn't correct, see what I mean?

I'm just saying that maybe these children would be more likely to have gender-related issues growing up. I don't know, but the doctors don't know, either.

It's not the only issue I'm concerned about. I'm concerned about how it would affect the relationship between the kids and their parents (the kids trying to fit gender roles, for example).

If the baby's sex is chosen for medical reasons, they're preventing serious illnesses. For the most part, those illnesses would be harder for the baby to deal with than gender issues (for example: Duchenne muscular dystrophy, generally affecting males, usually leads to death within 10-15 years of the onset of symptoms and there's no known cure for it).

And yes, racism and this issue are different, but I don't think the comparison is incorrect. I don't want to push my beliefs down everyone's throat, but I don't think society should continue to differentiate between men and women as much as they do now, nor should it expect things from men it doesn't expect from women and viceversa.

pierrot the clown.:

I'm just saying that maybe these children would be more likely to have gender-related issues growing up. I don't know, but the doctors don't know, either.

It's not the only issue I'm concerned about. I'm concerned about how it would affect the relationship between the kids and their parents (the kids trying to fit gender roles, for example).

And I think it's something that the parents and children would have to deal with when the time comes (if it does), not for an outsider to say "well, what if..." Y'know what I mean?

pierrot the clown.:

If the baby's sex is chosen for medical reasons, they're preventing serious illnesses. For the most part, those illnesses would be harder for the baby to deal with than gender issues (for example: Duchenne muscular dystrophy, generally affecting males, usually leads to death within 10-15 years of the onset of symptoms and there's no known cure for it).

But there would still be an issue there regardless, right? That's what I mean, nothing is guaranteed. I don't mean just nothing is guaranteed in this particular issue, I mean nothing is guaranteed at all.

pierrot the clown.:

And yes, racism and this issue are different, but I don't think the comparison is incorrect. I don't want to push my beliefs down everyone's throat, but I don't think society should continue to differentiate between men and women as much as they do now, nor should it expect things from men it doesn't expect from women and viceversa.

Everyone's different, people want different things, and that's okay, though. Who are we to tell them that they can't? Y'know? I mean, it's not our place to put our two cents, it's not our life, family, or baby.

Jewel Nicole:

And I think it's something that the parents and children would have to deal with when the time comes (if it does), not for an outsider to say "well, what if..." Y'know what I mean?

To decide whether something should be legal or not, we have to go through all the what if's. If not, nobody would discuss anything.

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But there would still be an issue there regardless, right? That's what I mean, nothing is guaranteed. I don't mean just nothing is guaranteed in this particular issue, I mean nothing is guaranteed at all.

I don't understand how that's a response to what I said. In fact, I don't think I understand what you're trying to say at all. I was explaining why I didn't think it was wrong when done for medical reasons, that's all.

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Everyone's different, people want different things, and that's okay, though. Who are we to tell them that they can't? Y'know? I mean, it's not our place to put our two cents, it's not our life, family, or baby.

So if a teenager is thrown out of his house for being gay, I shouldn't care because it's not my family. And if a man commits a hate crime against someone of color, I shouldn't care because the man's different, who am I to tell him he can't? And if a woman is raped, I shouldn't care because it's not my life. Ok, I didn't know things worked that way.