Religion and Homosexuality

@ Kurtni
I meant in terms of sexual pleasure.
At least, that's what I tend to hear it referred to as.

@ Kurtni
God didn't create homosexuality. He created human beings.

The Pies Endure:

@ Kurtni
God didn't create homosexuality. He created human beings.

I wonder why God told you this and decided to keep the rest of the world out of the loop.

dru can fly!:

@ Kurtni
I meant in terms of sexual pleasure.
At least, that's what I tend to hear it referred to as.

Oh, well fair enough then. xD

The Pies Endure:

@ Kurtni
God didn't create homosexuality. He created human beings.

Do you believe that God created every aspect of the human body, including brain makeup, hormones, DNA and genetics?

@ Kurtni
God didn't tell me this personally it's in the Bible.

@ Alex; periphery.
I believe God created everything, yes. But that's not my point. Biologically we are not made to be with anyone but the opposite sex. Attraction is different. That's wholly human. Animals don't have emotional attractions like we do. I'm not saying homosexuality is wrong...And I'm definitely not saying it's unnatural. I'm just saying biologically it's not how human's fit together. Literally.

And, I guess the long way of me saying, yes actually God did create homosexuality. >.< So...I'll admit I was wrong in my statement. But, it wasn't how He created it in the beginning.

@ The Pies Endure
So God created it, but it's wrong? That can't be right.

"For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving," -1 Timothy 4:4

@ Alex; periphery.
Perhaps that statement was a bit of a generalisation, especially as people can have intercourse with just about anything and can find pleasure with lots of other toys, objects, animals etc.

My knowledge of the Bible and what is says about pleasure in sex is very little, as I said before, I haven’t read all of it yet.What I meant was that God created a woman for Adam, not another man. I know that there are also all the different people who have both or neither or partial sex organs, which lie inbetween due to hormone levels, but I still believe what I said before. Although it is possible for intercourse between two of the same gender, it was made for opposites.

@ Kurtni
If someone is born into poverty and is so hungry that they stole something, so that they could eat, that doesn’t make it any less of a crime. That’s still stealing, the same as if it was a rich man, and according to God, that’s still sin. So whether it’s a homosexual or a heterosexual having intercourse with someone of the same sex, it is still a sin. It doesn’t matter what the intention is or the circumstances, it’s still sin.

God loves the people, what he doesn’t love is the sin which stems from the choices we make.

@ dru can fly!

There are lots of parts of the body which can be used for stimulation; the prostate is just one of them even though that isn't its purpose, just like breasts can be used, but again, that isn't their purpose.

@ pearlhunter
Okay, so why do you believe homosexuality is a sin? And where do you think homosexuality comes from if it is a sin? And do you follow all the laws of Leviticus?

(And it may not only be used for pleasure, but it creates pleasure because of the way God designed it and he put it where it is so it's kind of a coincidence that God created something that creates so much anal penetration pleasure if men but thinks "sodomy" is "wrong". Not to mention homosexuality occurs in nature, therefore is natural. Transgenderism is natural as well.)

The Pies Endure:

I believe God created everything, yes. But that's not my point. Biologically we are not made to be with anyone but the opposite sex. Attraction is different. That's wholly human. Animals don't have emotional attractions like we do. I'm not saying homosexuality is wrong...And I'm definitely not saying it's unnatural. I'm just saying biologically it's not how human's fit together. Literally.

But even if attraction is purely human (as opposed to animalistic), that's still not to say that it's not biological, or that it's within our conscious control. There is increasing evidence to suggest that our sexualities are caused by genetic and hormonal factors, so if that's the case, how could it arise from anything other than the way our bodies are? And if God designed/created our bodies, that would surely mean that he was responsible for the chemical reactions and hormonal activity that take place inside them?

pearlhunter:

What I meant was that God created a woman for Adam, not another man.

For reproduction, yes. Which is fine. But as I said, that doesn't automatically invalidate other forms of sex, when you take into account that human sex (as well as sex in other species, such as dolphins for example) isn't 100% about reproduction.

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pearlhunter:

If someone is born into poverty and is so hungry that they stole something, so that they could eat, that doesn’t make it any less of a crime. That’s still stealing, the same as if it was a rich man, and according to God, that’s still sin. So whether it’s a homosexual or a heterosexual having intercourse with someone of the same sex, it is still a sin. It doesn’t matter what the intention is or the circumstances, it’s still sin.

I know this wasn't directed at me, but...

This is what gets to me about the idea of an absolute morality (i.e. one that doesn't take into account things such as context). Things aren't, or shouldn't be, black and white. I dislike, and in fact reject, the idea that a person living in poverty who steals something to eat in order to survive is just as bad as a rich person who steals something out of simple greed.

@ Alex; periphery.
Agreed. Wouldn't it be more sinful to let your children starve to death?

@ dru can fly!
I don't believe being homosexual is a sin, I only believe two men or two women having sex with each other is a sin. And that is simply because I believe in God. No, I don't follow all of Leviticus' laws because I believe that a lot of things changed in the new testament and also that a lot of those laws were meant for Israel.

@ Alex; periphery.
I'm not sure what else to say as I agree that sex isn't 100% for reproduction, I still believe that it's sin ^

With God everything is black and white. You either believe in him or you don't, you are either with him or you're not, and something is either a sin or it isn't. The world is a funny place. I can imagine that in some cultures it is okay to kill your neighbour if they anger you, or that it is accepted that people are slaves, and the slaves accept it and the neighbours accept it too. What makes your morals right?

For both of you: I do have morals that I still live with, no I wouldn't let a child or any person starve, they could steal whatever food they needed to survive from me, but that doesn't mean it isn't sin. Sin is for God and God alone to punish, I'm not going to start hating on people who have sex with others of the same gender or treat them badly or differently, we all sin.

@ pearlhunter
Why do you choose select Leviticus verses to follow then (like homosexuality)?

pearlhunter:

So whether it’s a homosexual or a heterosexual having intercourse with someone of the same sex, it is still a sin. It doesn’t matter what the intention is or the circumstances, it’s still sin.

God loves the people, what he doesn’t love is the sin which stems from the choices we make.

The world is a funny place. I can imagine that in some cultures it is okay to kill your neighbour if they anger you, or that it is accepted that people are slaves, and the slaves accept it and the neighbours accept it too. What makes your morals right?

For both of you: I do have morals that I still live with, no I wouldn't let a child or any person starve, they could steal whatever food they needed to survive from me, but that doesn't mean it isn't sin. Sin is for God and God alone to punish, I'm not going to start hating on people who have sex with others of the same gender or treat them badly or differently, we all sin.

If your idea of God loved people, he wouldn't set them up for failure by designing them to sin. That's not love, it's demented.

And if you're strictly going by the Bible, having slaves is a perfectly acceptable thing to do, and any slave who doesn't accept their imprisonment is a sinner. No grey area there...

So what would the pious thing to do be? Starve to death and commit suicide by default? Isn't that a sin as well?

I don't see how you can think the Bible is black and white, when it contains things that blatantly contradict one another. That creates grey area because you have to decide what is valid and what isn't. You're a woman speaking about religion, so you must have decided the parts of the bible that say women cannot speak about religion are a grey, open-to-interpretation area, or you're sinning right now. You may think your views are black and white, but like every other Christian out there, alternatives to your beliefs exist.

pearlhunter:

With God everything is black and white. You either believe in him or you don't, you are either with him or you're not, and something is either a sin or it isn't. The world is a funny place. I can imagine that in some cultures it is okay to kill your neighbour if they anger you, or that it is accepted that people are slaves, and the slaves accept it and the neighbours accept it too.

I find it ironic that you defend the idea of God's morality being absolute and correct, and then immediately bring up slavery, talking about it as if it's totally wrong in God's eyes. The Bible contains several verses encouraging/condoning slavery.

pearlhunter:

What makes your morals right?

I believe that the key to good or correct morality is understanding the outcomes of certain behaviours and attitudes, and whether or not those outcomes result in a contribution to general human wellbeing, as opposed to general human suffering. For instance, killing isn't right because it's blatantly detrimental to human wellbeing, and it's directly linked to human suffering.

@ dru can fly!
Evolution would be my answer to that. Never said homosexuality was wrong. Perhaps human evolution made it necessary for homosexuality to come into being.

@ Alex; periphery.
I'll use the same answer I did for dru. Human evolution could be the answer to this. As it is I know sexuality isn't always a choice and I even argue that point with my mum when it comes to lesbians because she thinks women only become gay if they've had a traumatic experience with men. She doesn't think that of gay men...she thinks that's mostly biological.

But, perhaps it was more an evolutionary choice for altruistic reasons that somehow helped humans for social bonding reasons? After all society is important to us.

I don't know how this would fit within God's plan but it does allow for me um say God didn't create it initially. But he did create the potential.

As to it being bad or good. The Bible was written by men who would have put their own biased values into it. But, that doesn't mean we can't trust the Bible as a whole.

@ The Pies Endure
There is no such thing as an evolutionary "choice", you don't get to pick how you evolve, I hate that phrasing, as it's just a veiled attempt to justify calling homosexuality a sinful choice. You can't use an evolutionary argument if you believe God created humans, because that involves no evolution. I don't see a difference between God directly making someone gay and creating the "potential" as you say, because God knew what would happen and he allowed it. He wanted to punish people for something outside of their control, based on your interpretation.

@ pearlhunter

Quote

With God everything is black and white. You either believe in him or you don't, you are either with him or you're not, and something is either a sin or it isn't. The world is a funny place. I can imagine that in some cultures it is okay to kill your neighbour if they anger you, or that it is accepted that people are slaves, and the slaves accept it and the neighbours accept it too. What makes your morals right?

So if something either is a sin or it isn't, then you should still be believing things that once were sins still are sins, correct? Either you believe in the Bible completely or you don't, yes? Or do you only see black and white sometimes?

As Alex pointed out, the Bible used to be used to justify slavery. It was also used to keep people of different races from getting married. It has also be used to promote rampant sexism.

@ Kurtni
That's Not true. God can use evolution to create humans. God can do anything. We can't limit God like that. And I use choice purely in a biological sense not in a human social sense.

dru can fly!:

@ pearlhunter
Why do you choose select Leviticus verses to follow then (like homosexuality)?

I chose the homosexuality one because I know that it is still the same in the new testament but also, more importantly I see it as something even more personal. I have no right to tell people not to do it, but my views are that as it says in the bible, your body is a temple of God, 1Cor 3:18-20, something sacred, and so for that reason I especially seek to obey that command.

For the other laws, I don’t have an answer for you because that’s a chapter I haven’t fully read yet. I will do my best to read it and give you an answer by the end of the month so I’m sorry I can’t give you a full answer right now. I do know that there are some crazy laws though like you can’t wear clothes made from more than one material? So yeah, I’ll have to get back to you on that one.

@ Kurtni
@ Alex; periphery.

Also, would it be alright to move the rest of the discussion to the Christian board as I dont think it's really to do with homosexuality anymore? I do have some answers for you.

pearlhunter:

Also, would it be alright to move the rest of the discussion to the Christian board as I dont think it's really to do with homosexuality anymore? I do have some answers for you.

Sure.