Proposed (and Approved) Mosque at Ground Zero in NYC

JessiBunny:

It doesn't matter if its been 9 years. Ask the Jewish people if its alright for the Nazi party to hold its meetings next door to their place of worship.

I bet they have no problem with the Goethe institute being next door, though. (In fact the Goethe institute frequently holds exhibitions/talks/etc on the Holocaust.) Nazis were a small percent of the German population, the Goethe institute represents all Germans, in much the same way Islamic extremists are a small percent of all Muslims, but an Islamic center represents all Muslims.

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I was in 3rd grade and we watched everything on the news. Every classroom in the building watched the Towers Fall. All of our teachers cried, even a few of the Kindergarten age children. It was a traumatic day for the children, the adults, and the families that lost their loved ones. What do you think this is doing to them? They probably don't hate the entire Muslim population, but do you really think they need that resting on their minds as well? 9 years is nothing if you lost someone to the Towers. 9 years is nothing to many of the American people.

Statistics show that 35% of Iraqi children are orphans of war and somewhere around 70% have suffered serious traumas because of the war and will probably (if they haven't already) develop serious mental disorders because of it. What do you think this is doing to them?

I'm not sure what the orphans have to do with the mosque discussion.

Not saying they aren't important over all, just saying I don't feel like being guilt tripped because I think 9/11 was awful traumatic event.

I was talking about all of Germany, I clearly said Nazi's. Saying that 9/11 is something that people should be ready to get over in 9 years, after so many people died for no reason at all, is really ridiculous. There was NO warning whatsoever that they were going to attack the towers. There was no reason anyone was aware of that so many innocent people were going to die, just for a message.

I agree that the war we're in is wrong, but I support the troops (if that makes any sense.) And I didn't mean to make it sound like I don't care that innocents are dying over there as well, I'm just saying this topic is about the Mosque and Ground Zero.

JessiBunny:

I'm not sure what the orphans have to do with the mosque discussion.

Not saying they aren't important over all, just saying I don't feel like being guilt tripped because I think 9/11 was awful traumatic event.

And I'm saying that the war in Iraq was a much more traumatic event, but you seem to care much less about. This wouldn't be that bad if the majority of your co-nationals didn't share the same opinion which makes you all seem very very hypocritical. Which in turn makes the world anti-American.

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I was talking about all of Germany, I clearly said Nazi's. Saying that 9/11 is something that people should be ready to get over in 9 years, after so many people died for no reason at all, is really ridiculous. There was NO warning whatsoever that they were going to attack the towers. There was no reason anyone was aware of that so many innocent people were going to die, just for a message.

I agree that the war we're in is wrong, but I support the troops (if that makes any sense.) And I didn't mean to make it sound like I don't care that innocents are dying over there as well, I'm just saying this topic is about the Mosque and Ground Zero.

Not all Muslims are extremists, not all Germans are Nazis. An Islamic center wouldn't be a Nazi party headquarters any more than a Goethe institute is (in case you didn't know the Goethe institute is a culture institution much like Alliance Francaise and British Council whose role is to promote German language and culture abroad). And indeed there are two Goethe institute centers in Poland (in Warsaw and Krakow, both cities whose population was decimated by the Holocaust).

Did the American government give Iraqi civilians ANY warning before they invaded?

I think that would be when President Bush announced it over live television.

And I can only imagine that after connecting a horrible act of terrorism to a certain country to a country, the leader who supposedly lead the attacks can pretty much bet that there's going to be a war. The war we happened to get in after that, I'm not even sure why we went there, something about weapons of mass destruction. Either way, I don't agree with the war that isn't about the towers. I agree completely we did the right thing after we were viscously attacked for no reason at all, but like I said before, it's not really about the war.

You keep saying that I'm accusing Germans of being Nazi's. I clearly stated I wasn't saying that at all. If there were a NAZI party (if I'm not mistaken it was a political party?) meeting next to a Jewish place of worship, there would be problems. If white supremacists were to hold their meetings next to an all-black college, there would be problems. I can only see bad coming out of this, since the Trade Centers have been brought up.

I'm merely saying that if they had just asked to build it there because they wanted it there due to a high number of Muslims in that area, or it was easier to travel to, or some reason OTHER than mentioning a catastrophic event that terrorized, shocked, and traumatized the nation. It seems like a bad way to go about things, if you ask me.

JessiBunny:

I think that would be when President Bush announced it over live television.

And I can only imagine that after connecting a horrible act of terrorism to a certain country to a country, the leader who supposedly lead the attacks can pretty much bet that there's going to be a war. The war we happened to get in after that, I'm not even sure why we went there, something about weapons of mass destruction. Either way, I don't agree with the war that isn't about the towers. I agree completely we did the right thing after we were viscously attacked for no reason at all, but like I said before, it's not really about the war.

There is no conclusive evidence to support the theory that the Iraqi government sponsored terrorist groups. I can't say the same about the CIA.

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You keep saying that I'm accusing Germans of being Nazi's. I clearly stated I wasn't saying that at all. If there were a NAZI party (if I'm not mistaken it was a political party?) meeting next to a Jewish place of worship, there would be problems. If white supremacists were to hold their meetings next to an all-black college, there would be problems. I can only see bad coming out of this, since the Trade Centers have been brought up.

But an Islamic center would be NOTHING like a Nazi party meeting place. Is that really so hard to understand? Extremists make a very small percentage of all Muslims. Not all mosques are full of extremists just like not all Christian churches are extremist. Saying that all Muslims (and all Muslim places of worship) are extremists is as absurd as saying that all Germans are Nazi.

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I'm merely saying that if they had just asked to build it there because they wanted it there due to a high number of Muslims in that area, or it was easier to travel to, or some reason OTHER than mentioning a catastrophic event that terrorized, shocked, and traumatized the nation. It seems like a bad way to go about things, if you ask me.

62 Muslims died in 9/11. Was their death less painful because they were Muslims? Or do you think their families weren't terrorized, shocked and traumatized when they found out that their loved ones had been killed only so they'll be unjustly blamed for it by the mass-media/a good portion of the public?Can you even imagine how that must feel like? If 9/11 was as catastrophic an event as you claim it affected every single American citizen in a traumatic way, including the Muslim minority who now want a place of worship were they can recover. I don't understand how you can suggest that they don't deserve to recover from 9/11 as much as you do just because you're Christian and they're Muslim.

JessiBunny:

You keep saying that I'm accusing Germans of being Nazi's. I clearly stated I wasn't saying that at all. If there were a NAZI party (if I'm not mistaken it was a political party?) meeting next to a Jewish place of worship, there would be problems. If white supremacists were to hold their meetings next to an all-black college, there would be problems. I can only see bad coming out of this, since the Trade Centers have been brought up.

They're not ideal analogies.

We're talking about a Mosque - a Muslim place of worship - being built near Ground Zero. Islam is not comparable to Naziism and white supremacy. They are completely different things. Nazis were harmful because they were cruelly hateful towards certain people in society. Muslims, in general, are not hateful beings who seek to ruin American society with their places of worship. They aren't seeking to take over and butcher American Christians and convert the USA to Islam.

In fact, if I were a Muslim I'd probably be downright offended you were comparing me to a Nazi or white supremacist.

It seems to be somewhat invoking Godwin's Law.

In the end, it's just a place of worship. A place for someone of a different religion to unwind, be spiritual and feel closer to God. If something as simple as that feels wrong because it's near something where those naughty terrorists did something, it just seems ridiculous.

Yes, three thousand people died. They died because of politics, because of ill-conceived Cold War positioning, because of unpreparedness, because of nearly fifty or sixty years of previous events that led to that.

I think it's ridiculous and unfair to punish the group for what a vast vast vast minority did.

They weren't ideal analogies. I apologize, I thought not all Nazi's were after the Jewish people. I thought it was a political party where some people took it to the extreme. My bad. I didn't mean to say all Muslims are awful. You're taking everything I'm saying wrong.

Its bad that they are trying to build it there for the reason they are. I have said, time and time and time again that I DON'T CARE THAT THEY ARE BUILDING IT THERE.

I care that they had to bring up that awful event just so they could build the building there. I don't think it was smart to bring it up. That's what I don't agree with. What is so hard to get about that? Why do I have to be the awful 'intolerant' person because I think they shouldn't have brought up 9/11.

^I think people are misunderstanding, that the people sponsoring the building have directly said that they want to build it to increase peace, and to decrease ill-feeling after 9/11. CLEARLY they think it's related to 9/11. Why wouldn't everyone else?

kafka.:

You know what's truly offending?
The fact that the US has literally slaughtered thousands of innocent civilians in Iraq for no apparent reason (to this day there is absolutely no conclusive evidence that Iraq supported Al-Qaeda or produced mass-murder weapons), but they have the nerve to say that all Muslims are blood-thirsty psychos. How could the world not be anti-American when the US is so hypocritical?

I think you'll find it's the government doing that, not the people, and the people are criticising the mosque, not the government. That's the difference.

And I think you'll also find that many americans DID protest the US attacking Iraq, simply on the basis that it might be connected to WMD's, and that the government was heavily suspect and criticised because people thought they were doing it for oil rights.

lovecraft:

^I think people are misunderstanding, that the people sponsoring the building have directly said that they want to build it to increase peace, and to decrease ill-feeling after 9/11. CLEARLY they think it's related to 9/11. Why wouldn't everyone else?

kafka.:

You know what's truly offending?
The fact that the US has literally slaughtered thousands of innocent civilians in Iraq for no apparent reason (to this day there is absolutely no conclusive evidence that Iraq supported Al-Qaeda or produced mass-murder weapons), but they have the nerve to say that all Muslims are blood-thirsty psychos. How could the world not be anti-American when the US is so hypocritical?

I think you'll find it's the government doing that, not the people, and the people are criticising the mosque, not the government. That's the difference.

And I think you'll also find that many americans DID protest the US attacking Iraq, simply on the basis that it might be connected to WMD's, and that the government was heavily suspect and criticised because people thought they were doing it for oil rights.

Did you protest against it? Are you protesting against it? Because you seem more intent on protesting against the building of a freaking Mosque that isn't going to affect anyone. (If anything, it only offends some people, but it doesn't affect anyone.)

^Nope, I didn't and I only now do, because I don't want soldiers over there getting killed. Which, I suppose, is a terrible view, but, it's my view.

And yes, people are protesting something that isn't going to hurt them. It's my experience with people in general that they'll bitch a lot more about imagined hurts to themselves, than real hurts to others.

Oh, hey, there's a mosque two blocks from the WTC. Well la-de-frickin'-da!

^Horribly offensive to me as an American. =/

It's not that it won't hurt any of us, its an awful reminder the way they brought it up. Its a TRAGEDY. They are bringing it up it up so they can build it. It's ridiculous, I don't care that they build it.

You obviously don't understand the pain behind the entire situation. They brought it up for little to no reason. They could have just kept it within their own little clique or whatever the hell else besides bringing it up to the ENTIRE nation. There's the problem with it.

England's Dreaming:

Oh, hey, there's a mosque two blocks from the WTC. Well la-de-frickin'-da!

Why is it offensive? The bottom line is that the U.S is religiously tolerant. A mosque is a place of religion, no matter what the location may be.

I suck. Triple post.

double.

I agree with everything you have said, lovecraft!

If you're a Muslim and you follow the Koran - you want to die in the name of Allah. The best way to do it? Kill the Christians and Jews. Don't believe me? Open up the Koran yourself. 5:54 tells them not to take Christians and Jews as friends 47:4 - "When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens." 48:25? "Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another."

If you're a Muslim you're okay. If you're not? You're effed. 48:29 once again says to be harsh to unbelievers. It may be true that a lot of Muslims don't believe in killing innocent people (then again, the Koran says it's okay to lie in the name of Allah if it spreads the religion .. just sayin'.) but the Koran says otherwise. And Allah would be proud.

Why would we want a place so close to ground zero for a group that follow this same book?

(Check out the Koran. Don't listen to what other people say. Read it. Even Christians should. I love Muslim people. I don't love what their religious book teaches. I don't think God wants us go on a killing rampage here but I'm sure He wants us to protect ourselves.)

Not everyone follows the Koran to the T, just like not all Christians follow the Bible to a T.

I don't that making a mosque near (not on, NEAR) Ground Zero will cause Muslims to start killing every Christian in sight.

Silver.:

I agree with everything you have said, lovecraft!

If you're a Muslim and you follow the Koran - you want to die in the name of Allah. The best way to do it? Kill the Christians and Jews. Don't believe me? Open up the Koran yourself. 5:54 tells them not to take Christians and Jews as friends 47:4 - "When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens." 48:25? "Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another."

If you're a Muslim you're okay. If you're not? You're effed. 48:29 once again says to be harsh to unbelievers. It may be true that a lot of Muslims don't believe in killing innocent people (then again, the Koran says it's okay to lie in the name of Allah if it spreads the religion .. just sayin'.) but the Koran says otherwise. And Allah would be proud.

Why would we want a place so close to ground zero for a group that follow this same book?

(Check out the Koran. Don't listen to what other people say. Read it. Even Christians should. I love Muslim people. I don't love what their religious book teaches. I don't think God wants us go on a killing rampage here but I'm sure He wants us to protect ourselves.)

If all Muslims took the Qu'ran on every single word it says, then they'd be mass Christian murders by now at the hands of all Muslims. But... there isn't.

Like not all Christians take the Bible literally, not all Muslims take the Qu'ran literally. There are - as it's been said 38578453 times already - extremists who take pride in murdering people who are not part of Islam. But they are a tiny minority of Muslims. I have to say, most Muslims in society keep to themselves. When was the last time a Muslim harassed you for being Christian? When was the last time a Muslim tried to murder you for being Christian? When was the last time you actually talked to a Muslim?

Yeah - but the difference? If Christians followed Jesus to the T they would be KIND. The Koran teaches violence. I don't understand. People bash the Bible for the OT and say how horrible they are even though Jesus said to now live with mercy. And yet those same people stand up for Islam? An Allah who teaches to kill anyone who's not Muslim, to beat their wives, lying is okay, and all that? I seriously don't understand.

I'm a religious studies major so I have to take classes on religions besides Christianity, to point out the obvious. I took Islamic Law and Modern Islam. Anyways. We were watching these videos and reading these articles and (from the mouths of people in Islamic terrorist groups) they spoke about how stupid Americans are. They don't want peace with us, these groups. They want us dead. When we appease them they think we're weak. They don't want to get along. They want to fight. (They want the Jihad). So, yes, when it comes to Islamic terrorist groups, this type of thing makes them see us as weak. And whens the best time to attack. When someone is weak.

Edit // My friend is a missionary in the middle east. If you're a Christian, you best not walk the streets alone. If you're a Christian woman it's even worse. In America it's not bad, mainly because of the laws and also the fact that many American Muslims are, well, Americanized. It's very dangerous to be over there. Women and children are more accepting, though, my friend said. One of my friend's college roommate was a Muslim who converted to Christianity and is now out of the family. They reject him. Stories of his childhood and what they believe is crazy. He said his family wouldn't kill but wouldn't be sad if someone else did it. They hate Jews and Christians.