Slavery and Segregation vs. Holocaust

ayanasioux:

Okay, where are you getting this info from because some of the things you're saying is different from what I've learned?

And you do know that African religions weren't only changed for the people who were formal slaves in the US right? It also happened when Europeans came to Africa and changed a lot of the religious beliefs. Have you ever looked on a map of Africa on the different religions that are practice in Africa? If you notice a lot of the people their are either Catholic, Christian or Muslim. Do you think that most of the African population always practiced those religions? Muslim, maybe but not so much Catholic and Christian.

Oh and Apartheid is just a weak alibi for segregation AND slavery (you'll only find this out if you look into the dirty part of it) and some more fucked up shit.

Everything I said I learned from various Cultural Anthropology, History, and most importantly Archaeology courses (I spent a couple weeks studying Dahomey for that class) at my university. It's college level stuff and I wasn't really able to learn any of it when I was in high school, so I know where you're coming from.

And I'm well aware of the impact Europe had on Africa itself as well. African religion wasn't entirely wiped off the map, though, there are some people who still do practice their tribal religions, and also Christianity had the unique effect of merging with some African religions to make what we now call Vodou or Voodoo.

And I really didn't have to dig that deep to find what Apartheid really was. Where are you going with that?

ayanasioux:

Hahahahaha NO. Otherwise I would be that way and I'm not. There are plenty of other races that don't say those kinds of things the way black say it. Hispanics are even more of a minority and they don't say that kind of shit. I see them, I know them and they're proud of their cultures and they're very aware about it. You could ask any black person in America "What culture are you?" And I bet they'd say black. Black is not a culture, I don't care what anyone says. If you ask some random white person they'd probably say "Oh I'm French, German and blah blah blah" The only black people who know who they are were born somewhere in Africa or their parents were born somewhere in Africa. Hell, I don't even know what the fuck I am. But I at least I know my great grandfather is Scottish. Ain't that some shit? I only know that my great grandfather was Scottish.

Because of the dehumanization that had taken place with African Americans in history, it causes a lot of black people to think lowly of their natural selves. It has been engraved in a lot of our minds that black and bad and ugly.

What your talking about is the force of creolization that was placed on African slaves that arrived in the new world. Like I said, the added dehumanization played a part, but creolization happens naturally when two cultures (like European and African) interact on high enough levels. It was not entirely one sided, African culture affected European society as well. For example... do you have a porch on your house? If not, you know that a lot of people in America do. Did you know that it is a piece of West African architecture that was adopted by Europeans?

As for how people actually look, say, someone who was really fat would be considered ugly. That's because it's not normal to look that way. If it were the Africans who established colonies in the new world and Europeans who were enslaved, then it would be the polar opposite of what you said. It's because the majority looks a certain way. To be "normal" is to look like the majority.

Also, please take in note that I know dehumanization plays a part in it, but dehumanization is not the ONLY reason.

LEAF.:

What your talking about is the force of creolization that was placed on African slaves that arrived in the new world. Like I said, the added dehumanization played a part, but creolization happens naturally when two cultures (like European and African) interact on high enough levels. It was not entirely one sided, African culture affected European society as well. For example... do you have a porch on your house? If not, you know that a lot of people in America do. Did you know that it is a piece of West African architecture that was adopted by Europeans?

As for how people actually look, say, someone who was really fat would be considered ugly. That's because it's not normal to look that way. If it were the Africans who established colonies in the new world and Europeans who were enslaved, then it would be the polar opposite of what you said. It's because the majority looks a certain way. To be "normal" is to look like the majority.

Also, please take in note that I know dehumanization plays a part in it, but dehumanization is not the ONLY reason.

I know it's not the only reason. But I know it's the main reason.

ayanasioux:

Gesh, can I get to my point? o_O
My point is that if you hear some of the things some of (a lot of, at least the ones that live around me) say about their race, it's kind of disappointing. To them their natural hair is nigger hair and bad hair. Straight hair is good to them. Dark skin is bad and made fun of especially when it comes to girls. The lighter the skin the better. It's like, light skin is the best thing ever. Light eyes are better too, so wearing colored contacts to lighten their dark eyes is what some of them do. Now you might not understand how it feels but it makes me feel horrible. It's almost like it's bad to be who we are, black.

Now you can make that out as however the hell you want to make it out but I'm telling you that slavery has a big thing to do with it.

That's more a problem of self acceptance than race. A lot of people have troubles with their appearence and wish they could change something about it. I'm sure you'll find tons of people who wish they were darker just as you can find ones who wish they were lighter.

I can agree that maybe some of it is traced back to slavery, but I'm sure there might be Jews out there who hate their physical characteristics that are common to their culture. You can find it in any culture, really.

ayanasioux:

Hahahahaha NO. Otherwise I would be that way and I'm not. There are plenty of other races that don't say those kinds of things the way black say it. Hispanics are even more of a minority and they don't say that kind of shit. I see them, I know them and they're proud of their cultures and they're very aware about it. You could ask any black person in America "What culture are you?" And I bet they'd say black. Black is not a culture, I don't care what anyone says. If you ask some random white person they'd probably say "Oh I'm French, German and blah blah blah" The only black people who know who they are were born somewhere in Africa or their parents were born somewhere in Africa. Hell, I don't even know what the fuck I am. But I at least I know my great grandfather is Scottish. Ain't that some shit? I only know that my great grandfather was Scottish.

Every black person I know knows exactly where their family comes from. I understand that I live in the UK and you're talking about the US, but I'm sure there are a lot of African Americans who know where they come from. You can't just generalise an entire race because you only know your great grandfather is Scottish. Besides, are you talking specifically about yourself, or your parents too? I find it somewhat difficult to believe nobody in your whole family knows anything about your heritage other than 'your great grandfather was Scottish'.

ayanasioux:

Hahahahaha NO. Otherwise I would be that way and I'm not. There are plenty of other races that don't say those kinds of things the way black say it. Hispanics are even more of a minority and they don't say that kind of shit. I see them, I know them and they're proud of their cultures and they're very aware about it. You could ask any black person in America "What culture are you?" And I bet they'd say black. Black is not a culture, I don't care what anyone says.

...so something that doesn't apply to you means it's just not true, does it?
This whole idea is a generalization anyway, you can't say that it applies to everyone.

I'm Indian and I would like to be paler with blue eyes blah blah. I don't think it had anything to do with my race and ancestors being oppressed by white people, personally. I spend the majority of my time with Caucasian people. I only really date white people. The prettier girls in my year are usually white, but that's also partly down to the fact that they're the majority, so I'm just influenced to want similar features (however, I'm not living in self hate either, i'm content with my looks for the record)
But I'm not saying 'it doesn't apply to me, so NO can't be true.' So I don't think it was fair of you to mock LEAF's viewpoint like that.

Also, yes, 'black' may not be a culture to you (there is a thing as black culture in general though I assumed) but why is that necessarily a bad thing? So they don't identify with a particular country, but they can still identify with their entire race?

sunflowers.:

...so something that doesn't apply to you means it's just not true, does it?
This whole idea is a generalization anyway, you can't say that it applies to everyone.

I'm Indian and I would like to be paler with blue eyes blah blah. I don't think it had anything to do with my race and ancestors being oppressed by white people, personally. I spend the majority of my time with Caucasian people. I only really date white people. The prettier girls in my year are usually white, but that's also partly down to the fact that they're the majority, so I'm just influenced to want similar features (however, I'm not living in self hate either, i'm content with my looks for the record)
But I'm not saying 'it doesn't apply to me, so NO can't be true.' So I don't think it was fair of you to mock LEAF's viewpoint like that.

Also, yes, 'black' may not be a culture to you (there is a thing as black culture in general though I assumed) but why is that necessarily a bad thing? So they don't identify with a particular country, but they can still identify with their entire race?

Yes. Thanks for that sunflowers., you conveyed what I was trying to say better than I could.

And as for "black" as a culture, that was more of a product of evolution than it was forced by the whites. When the slaver ships came from Africa they were purposely filled with people from many ethnic groups, but most importantly, they spoke different languages. There was a motive behind this, to keep the Africans from uniting by preventing them from speaking to each other. Without unification they were (for the most part, anyway) unable to rise up and take control of the ship or the plantation once they reached America. There were revolutions despite this, however, but they would have been everywhere instead of in a few notable places if they were not separated. "Black" culture came from this. It was an attempt to unite, and it worked. It really loosened their ties to Africa because many people forgot their origins, but that was mainly because of slavery itself.

fightoffyourdemons.:

That's more a problem of self acceptance than race. A lot of people have troubles with their appearence and wish they could change something about it. I'm sure you'll find tons of people who wish they were darker just as you can find ones who wish they were lighter.

I can agree that maybe some of it is traced back to slavery, but I'm sure there might be Jews out there who hate their physical characteristics that are common to their culture. You can find it in any culture, really.

yeah but it's not as bad as it is with other cultures as it is with African Americans.

bateman:

Every black person I know knows exactly where their family comes from. I understand that I live in the UK and you're talking about the US, but I'm sure there are a lot of African Americans who know where they come from. You can't just generalise an entire race because you only know your great grandfather is Scottish. Besides, are you talking specifically about yourself, or your parents too? I find it somewhat difficult to believe nobody in your whole family knows anything about your heritage other than 'your great grandfather was Scottish'.

Haha, yeah right.
And no, my parents don' t know what culture they are other than African but that's not specific at all.

sunflowers.:

...so something that doesn't apply to you means it's just not true, does it?
This whole idea is a generalization anyway, you can't say that it applies to everyone.

I'm Indian and I would like to be paler with blue eyes blah blah. I don't think it had anything to do with my race and ancestors being oppressed by white people, personally. I spend the majority of my time with Caucasian people. I only really date white people. The prettier girls in my year are usually white, but that's also partly down to the fact that they're the majority, so I'm just influenced to want similar features (however, I'm not living in self hate either, i'm content with my looks for the record)
But I'm not saying 'it doesn't apply to me, so NO can't be true.' So I don't think it was fair of you to mock LEAF's viewpoint like that.

Also, yes, 'black' may not be a culture to you (there is a thing as black culture in general though I assumed) but why is that necessarily a bad thing? So they don't identify with a particular country, but they can still identify with their entire race?

Whoever said it was a bad thing? All I said that I think slavery has a large thing to do with it. What's kind of funny though is that a lot of people that are commenting on what I'm saying about the whole slavery thing haven't even lived around the people I've lived around much yet lived in the country and yet they're doubting me. I understand though. But I think I know my word better than they do. And I'm not mocking anyone I was just saying no because that was the answer in my eyes. No.

LEAF.:

Yes. Thanks for that sunflowers., you conveyed what I was trying to say better than I could.

And as for "black" as a culture, that was more of a product of evolution than it was forced by the whites. When the slaver ships came from Africa they were purposely filled with people from many ethnic groups, but most importantly, they spoke different languages. There was a motive behind this, to keep the Africans from uniting by preventing them from speaking to each other. Without unification they were (for the most part, anyway) unable to rise up and take control of the ship or the plantation once they reached America. There were revolutions despite this, however, but they would have been everywhere instead of in a few notable places if they were not separated. "Black" culture came from this. It was an attempt to unite, and it worked. It really loosened their ties to Africa because many people forgot their origins, but that was mainly because of slavery itself.

Well, isn't that the whole point though? You kind of just proved my point right. That slavery had caused all of that madness about people not knowing or remembering (no longer practicing) their cultures anymore because of slavery.

ayanasioux:

yeah but it's not as bad as it is with other cultures as it is with African Americans.

Do you have any solid proof behind this statement, or are you just assuming?

ayanasioux:

Well, isn't that the whole point though? You kind of just proved my point right. That slavery had caused all of that madness about people not knowing or remembering (no longer practicing) their cultures anymore because of slavery.

But you can't blame it all on slavery. It's there, but it's not the only factor. Acculturation played a huge role, as did the forgetfulness of those who lost their heritage. Even in the face of dehumanization, there are those who would hold onto their culture at the point of a gun, and others who would give it up without a second thought.

LEAF.:

But you can't blame it all on slavery. It's there, but it's not the only factor. Acculturation played a huge role, as did the forgetfulness of those who lost their heritage. Even in the face of dehumanization, there are those who would hold onto their culture at the point of a gun, and others who would give it up without a second thought.

I have a question, do you know what culture you are? Do you know your heritage?

fightoffyourdemons.:

Do you have any solid proof behind this statement, or are you just assuming?

Mostly proof. History teachers have said it, my dad has said it. It's quite obvious (if you live in America) can't believe you're making room to doubt it.

ayanasioux:

Mostly proof. History teachers have said it, my dad has said it. It's quite obvious (if you live in America) can't believe you're making room to doubt it.

That doesn't make it 100% true if people have "said it" that hold a certain value in your eyes. My dad says lots of things to, and just because I agree with them doesn't make them true. I was born in the US and I've lived here all my life, and I disagree with your statement. In the people I've known (which is a very diverse group of people) just about every single one of them has probably told me something they dislike about their appearence. I mean hell even I dislike things about my own appearance, especially the tone of my skin, and I'm white.

A hell of a lot of people have problems with their appearance. There is no race of people that have it worse. Problems with appearances are widespread and not isolated to any one race.

ayanasioux:

I have a question, do you know what culture you are? Do you know your heritage?

On my dad's side, I know almost nothing other than the fact that I'm Italian and that my grandfather traveled from Italy to America with his parents when he was a little kid.

On my mother's, though, I can trace my history back to Zachariah Rhodes, one of the founders of Rhode Island and a very outspoken person about the seperation of church and state, back before the American Revolution. Even farther back, I'm related to William The Conquerer, so there's British, French (Norman), and Norwegian roots there. The only reason I know that much, though, is because my uncle on my mom's side of the family spent his life researching for our family tree, which is something very few people commit themselves to like that, regardless of race.

fightoffyourdemons.:

That doesn't make it 100% true if people have "said it" that hold a certain value in your eyes. My dad says lots of things to, and just because I agree with them doesn't make them true. I was born in the US and I've lived here all my life, and I disagree with your statement. In the people I've known (which is a very diverse group of people) just about every single one of them has probably told me something they dislike about their appearence. I mean hell even I dislike things about my own appearance, especially the tone of my skin, and I'm white.

A hell of a lot of people have problems with their appearance. There is no race of people that have it worse. Problems with appearances are widespread and not isolated to any one race.

I don't think you understand and I don't know how else to explain it to you.

ayanasioux:

I don't think you understand and I don't know how else to explain it to you.

I think she understands well enough what you mean. I just think that she believes something difference and she's trying to persuade you of it. But do you genuinely believe, going back to your earlier point that the idea of black/coloured people wanting more caucasian features such as pale skin etc. is down to slavery?
In my opinion it isn't necessarily that, it's the being exposed to white people everywhere in my eyes, but that's from my own personal experience.
(although there are plenty of white people wanting darker features such as tanned skin etc.)

But since this topic is focusing on the Holocaust couldn't it also be down to the Nazi's view of the Aryan race being the only acceptable race and Jews, Blacks etcs being...well, wrong? That's not slavery, but it could be a contributing factor? Just throwing that out there.

sunflowers.:

But since this topic is focusing on the Holocaust couldn't it also be down to the Nazi's view of the Aryan race being the only acceptable race and Jews, Blacks etcs being...well, wrong? That's not slavery, but it could be a contributing factor? Just throwing that out there.

That's just it. It's one thing to enslave people. Slavery is something that has been just as common to human history as war and rape, and closely related to both, as well.

Holocausts and mass genocide are something far more atrocious, and the people to commit them have always been very sick in the head.

This topic is about slavery AND segregation, however. Segregation is something different. It shows the potential for a genocide to happen, but the genocide is not committed, so it is definitley NOT worse than the Holocaust, which involved extreme segregation AND mass killing, as opposed what happened to African slaves in America, which was just segregation and slavery.