Transexual/Transgender rights

Lion:

I don't think most women "confront" the idea of rape every time they walk out the door. If they do, then there's some serious anxiety issues going on there.

Are we afraid of the possibility of sexual assault as we exit the house? Not exactly. As we walk down an empty street and a man passes? Yes. As we get off a bus and a man follows us off, yes. As we are sitting at a bus stop or in a park and a man approaches us, yes. As we exit the house at night, or considering the solitary trip we are beginning, or notice a drunk person, or take a shortcut, or take a deviation, or are considering what we should wear or how much to drink or whether to use a mobile phone (thus appearing linked to someone to whom we can request help / identify the attacker) or not (as one 'opportunity' for assault is when a woman appears 'distracted') - to wear headphones (and discourage an assaulter from beginning a conversation or asking for the time to distract us) or not (seeming unaware of what's around us, again an 'opportunity' for assault) - to grip our keys in our pocket in readiness for a threat, or carry an aerosol can as a potential weapon - these are things that women think about, and consider. Not 'worry', necessarily. They aren't necessarily attached to a great fear or 'anxiety'. And if anything, that's worse, to me - that we are so numbed to rape culture that we consider these thoughts routine, necessary, to "avoid rape", as if it were possible - and as if it were our responsibility.

So, firstly, no. Saying that a man is unaware of this and resultantly does not understand women's experiences of this is neither rude nor cheapening nor wrong. It's a fact. Men and women are socialised differently. We are treated differently. Society expects different things of us, and for different things to happen to us. And different things do happen to us.

Secondly, how dare you cheapen women's experiences (which is actually what is happening) by suggesting a woman is mentally unwell for responding to rape culture in the ways I've described. I find that statement ignorant and insulting in equal measure.

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I find this incredibly upsetting.

I find it incredibly upsetting when men's rights activists are more upset by a woman's suggestion that a man doesn't understand something, than they are upset by the rates of female assault / rape / murder by men. As though policing women's comments about rape is the primary concern here.

If a woman gets through life without internalising the sort of fears and thoughts I've outlined, good for her. I hope nothing happens to her to radically alter that mindset. But it's horrible to dismiss the lived experiences of others (and attempt to silence them) on the basis of not understanding those experiences.

@ Lion
Rape culture and the act of rape itself are separate issues. Well, entwined, but separate. Men do not fear sexual assault everyday the way women do because, statistically, they have no reason to. Women are taught they should be afraid of being raped everyday.

@ Lion
I replied to you in the feminism thread.

@ pravda.
First and foremost, I did not suggest that women fearing rape means that they are mentally unstable. I said that if a woman fears rape every time she leaves her house, then that is not a healthy mindset in the slightest. If she is a prior abuse victim, then it's entirely understandable. Albeit, that doesn't dismiss the fact that she would still be mentally and emotionally unwell because of her abuse.

I suppose I can't rightfully speak for all men, because I don't know what their general thoughts on rape are. However, I feel responsible for stepping forward to defend men as a whole, whether or not they've had these experiences. Being gay and transgendered as well as having been through sexual abuse myself, I've felt the exact unease in most if not all of the situations you've described, as have countless other men. Less straight cis men perhaps, but men nonetheless. So to dismiss the entire male gender as I personally feel that you're doing, I find it... well, yes, upsetting. I could just as easily sit here and lecture you and all the others posting in this thread for having the opinions on gender issues that you do, arguing that you aren't trans* and so you couldn't possibly understand the real depth of the debate. I could argue that, to you, it's "just a very interesting topic of discussion". But I don't believe that. Just because one has never been in the situation doesn't mean that they don't have a comprehensive and understanding grasp of it. And that's just how I feel about men and the topic of rape, too.

Lion:

I could just as easily sit here and lecture you and all the others posting in this thread for having the opinions on gender issues that you do, arguing that you aren't trans* and so you couldn't possibly understand the real depth of the debate.

And you'd be right. I'm not trans, and it would be demeaning and very inflated of me to ever say I understand transphobia the way a trans-person does, or that I can somehow speak for their experiences without having experienced it myself.

I also replied to this post in the feminism thread, which is where subsequent discussions of women should happen.

@Lion

Also replying in the feminism thread.

@ Lion
But no one is saying that only women get raped. Rape culture, on the other hand, pretty much applies to women.

They're removing Gender Identity Disorder from the list of mental disorders. It's a good thing as far as acknowledging that trans individuals are not 'sick', but it will also make it more difficult to convince insurance companies to cover their treatments.

I've always viewed it as a physical problem rather than a mental disorder. You need to fix your body to match your brain. That's physical, not mental.

Thoughts?

(This happened a few months ago, I think.)

@ dru sighs no more.

It is a very difficult thing to handle. I'm not sure how the NHS will be able to...well, justify providing ops to people since it's not got any true medical stance.

Bleh.

It's about time that this starts to happen really, I think that minorities such as gays, lesbians and transgendered people need the rights that they should have. We're encouraged to be different from birth, why does it have to be that there's different rules and rights for people?

@ kurtjp
Yeah, it's like "be different, but only in the same ways as everyone else".

joan.:

@ dru sighs no more.

It is a very difficult thing to handle. I'm not sure how the NHS will be able to...well, justify providing ops to people since it's not got any true medical stance.

Bleh.

Yeah, I know what you mean. It would be hard to provide an expensive operation to them if there is no true medical stance. It's a hard one. I suppose the only fair way would be to make them pay for it themselves.

@ cocoa4ever
It should definitely be considered a medical issue, in my opinion, it is one. I just think it should be considered a physical disorder instead of a mental one.

Gender affirmation surgery (gender reassignment) is so expensive. And it's needed; like it's not a want it's an actual need for these people or else they can experience extreme body dysphoria that can lead to death (suicide). Not to mention how many trans people get killed because someone "found out".

So it not being considered a medical issue, it's a major problem.

I hope my sister is still able to get her hormones and therapy paid for. Her old job would have covered the surgery; I'm not sure about her new one.

@ miserable dru.
I'm sorry about my earlier comment- I didn't mean to say it wasn't a medical issue, I just meant it isn't quite the same as other ones.

In the Uk all our healthcare is paid for by the NHS, which is funded by taxpayers money. The problem is that the NHS is short of money at the moment, so to put lots of money into paying for expensive gender affirmation surgery instead of cancer treatment (for example) could be seen as a wrong move by some. I suppose it's what people think the NHS should spend its money on I guess. I personally would rather give cancer treatment to several people than gender affirmation surgery to one. But that's my opinion.

Also, the NHS can only really pay for operations which have a real medical issue (eg. it's going to kill them.) I can't comment on what it must feel like to be transgendered- but although it must be awful to feel like you're not in the right body, it won't physically kill you. So, the only real way to get it done would be to go private and pay for it yourself.

Sorry if I got a bit sidetracked.

cocoa4ever:

Also, the NHS can only really pay for operations which have a real medical issue (eg. it's going to kill them.) I can't comment on what it must feel like to be transgendered- but although it must be awful to feel like you're not in the right body, it won't physically kill you. So, the only real way to get it done would be to go private and pay for it yourself.

Just because something doesn't physically kill you doesn't mean it can't mentally kill you. People in the Trans community often feel body dysphoria and if left, that dysphoria can take a toll on their mental health and lead to mental illness. It can lead to things like depression and anxiety among other different disorders. Mental illness is just as damaging as physical illness. Something like depression can be just as much of a killer as something like cancer is. Mental illness can lead to suicide, it can and does kill.

The dysphoria that many in the Trans community feel is a real medical issue and it can kill them if left untreated. It's a very big problem that many feel it's not a real medical issue and thus, so many people are left feeling like this without any kind of help. The surgery is often a necessity because, like Dru said, if someone who is Transgender doesn't get it, they will most likely feel dysphoria with their body that may eventually lead them to suicide.

@ cocoa4ever
I'm sorry if you misunderstood me. I wasn't jumping on anything you said in a negative way.

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"And it's needed; like it's not a want it's an actual need for these people or else they can experience extreme body dysphoria that can lead to death (suicide). Not to mention how many trans people get killed because someone "found out"." - my post

"Also, the NHS can only really pay for operations which have a real medical issue (eg. it's going to kill them.)" - your response to my post

Like, I said, it can kill them. My sister is transgender and she has scars that will never go away from how deeply she cut herself. The fact that people don't see this as a "real medical issue" is a large part of the reason they don't get treated and a large part of the reason they will commit suicide, get killed, or just not be a productive member of society because they will be so depressed about the fact that they are physically trapped in the wrong body.

Imagine that you woke up tomorrow as a boy. Nothing else about you had changed. You still had the same attractions, the same feelings, the same beliefs. But you were a boy. You're mentally a girl, but physically a boy. There's nothing you can do about it. If you are attracted to men, you'll be called a faggot. If you're attracted to women, you won't want to sleep with them because then they'll have to see you naked, plus you can't have sex the way you want to. If you go out in public dressed the way you want, you will most likely get verbally assaulted and dirty looks, if not physically assaulted or raped. In a lot of states, you can get fired for it and it's perfectly legal. You don't know which restroom to use because if you use one you might get assaulted but if you use another you might make people feel uncomfortable. You go through the drive-thru in McDonald's and the guy handing you your food insults you in front of the people in your car and his co-workers (that one happened to my sister which I was there). People tell you it's a "phase" you'll outgrow. People refuse to use proper name and pronouns. Your parents kick you out.

This is a real medical issue; it needs real medical attention.

@ miserable dru.
I realise it is a medical issue and I shouldn't have said it wasn't. But I was speaking from the NHS's point of view- not my own personal one. I worded this "Also, the NHS can only really pay for operations which have a real medical issue (eg. it's going to kill them.)" completely wrong. I meant that at the moment, they can only afford to pay for operations which will physically kill. I understand mental conditions can and have killed before. But in the present economic climate, they can't afford to pay for both. I think it's more the fact gender affirmation surgery is so expensive makes it much harder to obtain, especially during a recession.

@ cocoa4ever

That's is NOT what's happening. The NHS regularly pays for surgeries that aren't particularly "essential" - from eye surgery (because hey, being partially sighted ain't gonna kill ya) to cosmetic procedures like tummy tucks. Hell, I'd suggest that most of the extreme measures for obesity like stomach stapling and shit aren't entirely necessary when psychological treatment would be far better but hey, I'm biased.

There are two factors that make getting transition surgery in the UK difficult in general (i.e. even if you go absolutely insane and go private).

One is that there's only one hospital in the entire country that does it! Every transwoman (haven't personally met a transman) I've spoken to has been ushered down to the same hospital in Brighton. It's not a procedure that can be entered into wily-nily since it is very easy to fuck up thus your general cosmetic surgeons usually stick to quick procedures so even if you go privately...you're still waiting on the same doctors.

Secondly, yes, without the old DSM definition, it is a bit more difficult to get the treatment they need. If only there was a subsection to the general depressive illnesses that could have implied that people who are trans could be going through the same thing and need the surgery. It is a good thing that it's not being seen as a general "craziness" but it doesn't mean that it hurts.It's an issue that is not black and white.

@ joan.

In theory, the NHS only funds 'essential' medical care, which is not the same as 'life saving' medical care, you probably won't die from a cold, but having a cold significantly impacts your life quality so the NHS has to provide you treatment / care when you have a cold, exactly like when you have cancer. What counts as 'essential' medical care, however, differs wildly and there are a lot of procedures the NHS doesn't fund that some / a lot of people think are 'essential', for example, very few breast cancer patients have their breast reconstruction surgeries paid by the NHS, although reconstruction can significantly impact the mental health of patients, similarly female / female couples still don't get free IVF although male / female couples do. This is not to mention that until last year, AIDS treatment was not covered by the NHS for immigrants, although treatment for everything else was (the same kind of panic about 'benefits tourism' is leading to all kinds of schemes to deny Romanian & Bulgarian immigrants all treatment through the NHS).

I am in fact transgender. I am a transgendered male, and it's hard to deal with at times. The only thing that matters to me is that I am proud to be transgendered and no one can tell me what I can and can't be